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[Music]

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explode to resolve your e-ticket ride

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into the world of a paranoid strap

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yourself e'en as we traverse the

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universe exploring the unexplained UFO

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ghost lost world

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cryptozoology as well as other

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dimensions it's time to take back the

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night and night

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now your electrifying hosts of exploring

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to the sod Timothy Begley and team

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sports so particularly heartening to me

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to see the rise of interest among

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scientists and the particularly

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astronomers in the UFO problem

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so it has often been said that a wider

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astronomers see UFOs as a matter of fact

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they do in a very recent report by

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Professor Sturrock of Stanford

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University who queried all the members

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of the American Astronomical Society

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found that 53% of those who responded

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said that in their opinion the UFO

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problem was was worthy of scientific

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study and what is more 64 of the

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astronomers who responded gave what

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would be called UFO reports objects

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sightings personally had made at their

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observatories frequently which to them

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was unexplained dr. Hynek was officially

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researching UFOs for the US Air Force

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and compiling a classified report known

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as project Sun later to become known as

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Project Blue Book well it was as an

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astronomer that I first became

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associated with the UFO problem in 1948

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the Air Force asked me as an astronomer

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to assist them in seeing how many of the

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reports on flying saucers that were

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coming in at that time could be

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explained astronomically and one thing

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led to another and I became scientific

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consultant of the air force and remained

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so for some twenty years I started

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almost as a complete skeptic because I

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thought the whole thing was a question

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of post-war nerves but it was a

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persistence of the phenomenon

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it refused to dry up blow away that

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finally led me to the beliefs that we

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had a real phenomenon to deal with this

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year marks the 30th anniversary of the

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advent of the Flying Saucer and that is

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the most unfortunate term in my opinion

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because it invites ridicule it opens the

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door to the great deal of buffoonery and

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lampooning it had a perfectly good

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history because when Kenneth Arnold

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described the motions of the discs that

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he had seen he said that it was like

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skipping a saucer over water but some

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reporter thought that was a very clever

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term and flying saucers were born but it

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it is really too bad because it has

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caused a great deal of jokes and so

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forth for instance one common expression

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is if you want to see flying sausages

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goose' waitress there is a shyness and a

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reluctance on the part of many witnesses

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and understandably so against reporting

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because too many have been ridiculed and

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the life has been made somewhat

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miserable for them but at the Center for

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UFO studies both in unison States and in

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Australia Israel is our standard

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practice never to use a person's name

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without their specific permission so if

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any of our viewers have a what they feel

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is a valid UFO experience and have not

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reported it by all means I would say it

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is your scientific duty well there you

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go Tim are you out there in Jasper I am

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sir well that is a cut of UFO history my

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in fact he mentions the 30th anniversary

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of the phenomena well just the what was

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last week of the week before we

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celebrated the 70th anniversary of the

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UFO phenomena we had on a Kenneth

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Arnold's granddaughter and we had on

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Bruce Maccabee discussing the Ken

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Arnold's UFO sighting over Mount Ranier

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so you know I guess Tim you you've heard

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of classic rock right well

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this is classic ufology our our program

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I think you have to admit it is one of

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the few that dig deep and dig back into

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the history of the I was going to say

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flying saucer mystery and and you know I

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I don't I I kinda always liked that term

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I mean the the UFO is certainly applies

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because they are on a unidentified and

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not all of them are flying saucers but

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of course some of them did look like

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flying saucers certainly in in those

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days but I think we're going to have a

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fascinating program tonight we've got to

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a guest on and the subject matter

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tonight we're having a tribute to the

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late astronomer J Allen Hynek so Tim

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what did you tell us about our guest

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give our audience a little bit

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background on who they will be and

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listening to be my pleasure Tim tonight

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we have with us Mark O'Connell who is

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the author of the really de a J Allen

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Hynek

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biography the close encounter man now

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marks a screenwriter teacher and blogger

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and he wrote episodes for Star Trek The

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Next Generation and Star Trek Deep Space

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9 mark says that he was influenced to

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write a book about J Allen Hynek because

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he was amazed that the influence Hynek

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has has had on our world

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as both a UFO researcher and as an

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astronomer hynek's work has affected pop

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culture and modern science in quite a

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remarkable way and also joining us

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tonight Tim is Jerry Clark Jerry has

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been interested in UFOs and anomaly

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since his adolescence and Jerry is

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author of more than 20 books on these

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subjects including one of my favorites

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by the way Jerry another prize-winning

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multi-buyer vol UFO encyclopedia now

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he's a former editor of fate magazine as

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well as of the International UFO

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reporter and the magazine the magazine

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for the center of uso UFO studies

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and I guess you said Tim you and Jerry

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have known each other for quite a long

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time so well we're about what 14 well at

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1415 we met through the pages of Ray

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Palmer's flying saucers magazine yeah

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Ray Palmer had a couple of different

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departments in there one was a person

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ELLs column and the other one was I

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think Jerry was at flying saucer club

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news and I hear me talk goes yeah yeah

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and he invited readers who wanted to

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start their own UFO organizations to

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submit free ads so this would have been

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around 1962 or 1963 and we all seem to

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have a it was a a Jerry and real Kilburg

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and probably our manning and a Dale red

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egg and a few of the other names that

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kind of escaped me a mailroom gave

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Halperin that's right and it was there

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was another of fellow who lived in Iowa

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and I can't remember his name but he was

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pretty active for a while but we all

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exchanged letters and not only did we

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exchange letters but we sent tapes

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around we would start out with a little

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this was before cassette tapes we had a

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little reel-to-reel tapes and each of us

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would record ten minutes or so of our

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thoughts on saucers or some recent

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incident and send it on to the next

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person then eventually it would make its

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way back to you of course the news might

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be a little late in coming in if

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somebody like Rick Hill bergna held out

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do it a little bit too long and and then

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when we had a few dollars in our pocket

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we even took part in conference calls

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what were you a part of any of those

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early conference calls Jerry I remember

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one of them you know quite exciting in

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those days Oh life guy I knew from the

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mail and their saucer bulletins yeah now

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it now it's called the party line

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so anyway I guess or I as I guess or I

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assume we've come a long way but I'm not

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really sure about that we're going to

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get the juries the opinions on that as

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we go along but uh I think let's start

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out with the mark how did you first hear

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of dr. Hynek I mean what was the the

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thing that gets you into researching his

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career and writing this monumental book

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I would say I mean there are not too

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many books on UFO personalities per se a

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couple of them maybe but certainly not

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on the more of the more scientific bent

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what was the driving force behind your

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book the Close Encounters man well I've

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been fascinated by the topic all my life

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going back to the early 60s when I was

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just a little boy my mom was a volunteer

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librarian in the little village where I

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grew up and she would take me into the

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library with her a lot of times and for

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some weird reason I always gravitated

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towards the bookshelf with the UFO books

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and the Bigfoot books and poltergeist

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books in the Bermuda Triangle books and

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you know I'm sure Eric van Daniken was

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there and I know for a fact that I read

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a brad Steiger book very early on well

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who didn't and I was I was just I was

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just in love with all of these mysteries

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and kind of left it behind in my adult

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life to a certain degree as you know I

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wrote some science fiction but then

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about five years ago I got sort of got

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interested again I started writing a UFO

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blog high strangeness and suddenly found

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myself just kind of diving headfirst

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back into UFO world and I realized I had

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a lot of catching up to do but I had

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been familiar with dr. hynek's work from

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those early days reading those books in

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the village library but only his work as

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as a UFO researcher didn't know anything

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about the rest of his life and so in the

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course of writing this

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this blog I contacted mark rod occur at

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the Center for UFO studies because I

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realized holy cow there Koufos still

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exists right in Chicago is living in

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Chicago at the time just a few miles

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away from dr. Rogers house so he he let

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me come over and poke through the files

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in the and the bookshelves and I started

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visiting there regularly just looking

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for things to write about and at some

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point or another on one of those visits

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mark mentioned that he said Koufos had

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always been looking for a writer to do

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the definitive account of dr. Hynix

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career and I I raised my hand and said

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please please pick me I would love to do

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that so that's really how it happened it

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just kind of it just kind of fell into

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my lap I guess and you know as soon as I

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started digging into hynek's work I had

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all those resources at Koufos but then I

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also had the archival material at

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Northwestern University

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across town where dr. Hynek taught for a

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quarter century so I was just

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extraordinarily lucky in the fact that

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so much of dr. hynix work had and

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education had taken place right in this

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you know this very condensed area in

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Chicago and so the material I'll just

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sort of presented itself to me in kind

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of a mystical way and it was just

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inevitable that I write the book oh yeah

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I can't think of anybody else who has

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written an entire book just on mr. Hynek

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so it's it's really great that that you

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decided to take this on and and really

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end up with just a you know like a

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fantastic book in my opinion thank you

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well the fun thing was like I said I had

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the Koufos resources which illuminated

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dr. hynek's UFO career and then I had

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the northwestern archives which

271
00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:34,500
illuminated his astronomy career and

272
00:13:39,230 --> 00:13:37,230
guys the really a fascinating thing that

273
00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:39,240
I discovered early on was that those two

274
00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:41,940
careers really informed each other in a

275
00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:44,070
lot of very very interesting ways like

276
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:45,960
Hynek started out as an astronomer one

277
00:13:50,750 --> 00:13:48,240
of his earliest interests was studying

278
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:50,760
the scintillation of stars he literally

279
00:13:59,540 --> 00:13:53,250
studied how stars twink

280
00:14:01,550 --> 00:13:59,550
and as you can imagine that skill came

281
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:01,560
in very handy for a UFO investigator

282
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:03,450
being able to look at something in the

283
00:14:08,930 --> 00:14:07,170
sky and understand what whether it's

284
00:14:11,150 --> 00:14:08,940
actually in motion or it's just

285
00:14:13,820 --> 00:14:11,160
twinkling it enabled Hynek to sort of

286
00:14:16,010 --> 00:14:13,830
add this extra layer of you know

287
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:16,020
scientific analysis to the witness

288
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,000
reports the hundreds and hundreds and

289
00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:19,680
hundreds of witness reports you know

290
00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:21,000
that he went through over the course of

291
00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:22,830
his career so that was really exciting

292
00:14:29,570 --> 00:14:24,870
to me when I really discovered how this

293
00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:29,580
two careers went hand-in-hand now Hynek

294
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:33,420
says that when the whole modern UFO gyro

295
00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:36,420
started that you know naturally uh he

296
00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:38,360
was a skeptic

297
00:14:46,190 --> 00:14:42,960
how did then the Air Force rope him in

298
00:14:48,050 --> 00:14:46,200
or I suppose rope in isn't a good word

299
00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:48,060
but you know how did the Air Force

300
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:50,700
managed to convince him that he was a

301
00:14:55,850 --> 00:14:52,740
guy that they needed you know on their

302
00:14:59,270 --> 00:14:55,860
side to help investigate this newly

303
00:15:01,100 --> 00:14:59,280
emerging phenomena well mark rodiger has

304
00:15:03,380 --> 00:15:01,110
mentioned to me and I just this may be

305
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:03,390
common knowledge I don't know there were

306
00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:05,130
a couple earlier candidates for

307
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:08,040
scientific consultant for the Air

308
00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:10,500
Force's UFO study group which as you

309
00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:12,740
said at the time was called Project sine

310
00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:15,150
but basically the air force was

311
00:15:19,610 --> 00:15:17,790
struggling to explain away all the

312
00:15:22,490 --> 00:15:19,620
flying saucer sightings that were coming

313
00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:22,500
in from all over the country in 1947 48

314
00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:25,260
49 so they put together this study group

315
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,480
project sign and project signs started

316
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:30,000
to explain away in debunk as many UFO

317
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:32,610
reports as it could but they found that

318
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:35,610
they needed they needed a scientist to

319
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:38,490
give them intellectual cover to you know

320
00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:41,250
to legitimize their their opinions that

321
00:15:45,380 --> 00:15:43,190
these objects were simply

322
00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:45,390
misidentifications of celestial objects

323
00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:47,790
well project sign was housed at

324
00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:49,380
wright-patterson Air Force Base in

325
00:15:54,650 --> 00:15:51,990
Dayton Ohio dr. Hynek just happened to

326
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:54,660
be teaching astronomy in Columbus Ohio

327
00:15:59,630 --> 00:15:57,330
at the Ohio State University and Ohio

328
00:16:02,770 --> 00:15:59,640
Wesleyan University so he was literally

329
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:02,780
the closest astronomer at hand he also

330
00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:05,850
interestingly enough had had high

331
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:06,990
security clearance with the

332
00:16:11,449 --> 00:16:10,080
government not not long or earlier

333
00:16:13,370 --> 00:16:11,459
during World War two when he was doing

334
00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:13,380
top-secret work helping to develop the

335
00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:17,790
proximity fuze for the army so so he was

336
00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:18,630
close by

337
00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:21,630
he was a credible scientist and he could

338
00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:23,760
get a high security clearance with

339
00:16:28,850 --> 00:16:26,310
minimal red tape so he was the perfect

340
00:16:30,380 --> 00:16:28,860
candidate for the Air Force and he

341
00:16:32,930 --> 00:16:30,390
didn't believe UFOs were anything

342
00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:32,940
special so he could be relied on to

343
00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:34,740
debunk as many cases as they threw at

344
00:16:40,940 --> 00:16:37,470
him and do you know what was the first

345
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:40,950
case he investigated you mean as a field

346
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:44,160
investigator well working for the Air

347
00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:46,770
Force yeah I guess yeah well I I don't

348
00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:48,540
know if I don't know if I know the first

349
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:51,630
one but among the very first ones were

350
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:53,910
of course the kenneled Kenneth Arnold

351
00:17:00,290 --> 00:16:55,980
sighting in 47 and then the Thomas

352
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:00,300
Mantell crash in the so he did he did

353
00:17:05,299 --> 00:17:02,250
investigate them or was involved in it

354
00:17:08,780 --> 00:17:05,309
yeah but at this point his investigation

355
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:08,790
was limited to he would have a stack of

356
00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:11,010
papers plopped in front of him on his

357
00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:13,920
desk and a stack of a stack of reports

358
00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:16,260
written up by Air Force staffers and

359
00:17:20,449 --> 00:17:18,630
then he would read you know the

360
00:17:23,030 --> 00:17:20,459
witness's testimony and the Air Force's

361
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:23,040
analysis and he would render judgment as

362
00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:25,679
to whether this object in question was

363
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:27,780
simply a misidentified astronomical

364
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:29,850
object so that was the extent of his

365
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:32,250
investigation in those early days so

366
00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:33,840
basically he read the file on the

367
00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:37,320
Kenneth Arnold case he thought Kenneth

368
00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:39,630
Arnold may have been mistaken about what

369
00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:42,630
he saw he read the file on the mantle

370
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:45,300
crash case and he agreed at least

371
00:17:49,549 --> 00:17:47,130
originally he agreed with the Air

372
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:49,559
Force's assessment that captain Mantell

373
00:17:54,110 --> 00:17:52,530
had actually been chasing Venus so that

374
00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:54,120
yeah you know I I have I am heard

375
00:17:59,570 --> 00:17:56,580
actually heard interviews with at least

376
00:18:01,010 --> 00:17:59,580
one member of the Mantell family I mean

377
00:18:03,410 --> 00:18:01,020
I guess the interview maybe goes back a

378
00:18:07,340 --> 00:18:03,420
dozen years or so but they were still

379
00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:07,350
convinced that they a genuine UFO was

380
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:11,340
responsible for the you know the death

381
00:18:17,659 --> 00:18:14,790
of Captain Mantell they didn't go for

382
00:18:20,509 --> 00:18:17,669
the what was it a weather balloon or a

383
00:18:22,879 --> 00:18:20,519
hanger balloon or sky balloon

384
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:22,889
that was a sky of balloon yeah yeah that

385
00:18:28,039 --> 00:18:25,679
that explanation has been contested in

386
00:18:31,339 --> 00:18:28,049
recent years it was sort of the

387
00:18:34,129 --> 00:18:31,349
consensus view even for ufologists and

388
00:18:35,779 --> 00:18:34,139
in my encyclopedia I went with that I

389
00:18:38,529 --> 00:18:35,789
think that if I were to rewrite that I

390
00:18:42,709 --> 00:18:38,539
could leave that case open it's really

391
00:18:44,959 --> 00:18:42,719
quite complicated and not perhaps so

392
00:18:47,509 --> 00:18:44,969
easily explained yeah you know you know

393
00:18:50,659 --> 00:18:47,519
of all the K I don't know how many cases

394
00:18:52,399 --> 00:18:50,669
have been ascribed to the weather

395
00:18:54,529 --> 00:18:52,409
balloons are some kind of balloon you

396
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:54,539
know outside of party balloons I've

397
00:18:59,479 --> 00:18:58,320
never seen a strange balloon or anything

398
00:19:01,819 --> 00:18:59,489
in the sky and I don't know how many

399
00:19:03,469 --> 00:19:01,829
people you know have unless maybe you

400
00:19:05,799 --> 00:19:03,479
live in Arizona and you have the you

401
00:19:08,479 --> 00:19:05,809
know and once a year they have their big

402
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:08,489
balloon festival or something like that

403
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:11,129
I mean it just doesn't say you don't

404
00:19:15,349 --> 00:19:13,200
look up in the skies you know the the

405
00:19:17,899 --> 00:19:15,359
UFO it's a balloon it just it just it

406
00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:17,909
doesn't seem like one of the theories

407
00:19:22,069 --> 00:19:20,190
that holds too much water that's a good

408
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:22,079
point I don't recall seeing all that

409
00:19:27,649 --> 00:19:24,559
many weather balloons in the sky either

410
00:19:31,159 --> 00:19:27,659
and and you would think also to now the

411
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:31,169
behavior of the object it didn't seem

412
00:19:35,539 --> 00:19:33,450
too much like it did the object move

413
00:19:38,899 --> 00:19:35,549
about in the sky or was it motionless in

414
00:19:41,299 --> 00:19:38,909
one spot the Mantell object yeah the man

415
00:19:44,209 --> 00:19:41,309
tells oh yeah it was it was moving

416
00:19:46,699 --> 00:19:44,219
through the sky it was it wasn't moving

417
00:19:49,699 --> 00:19:46,709
fast enough that it could outrun man

418
00:19:52,129 --> 00:19:49,709
tells Mustang Mantell was able to catch

419
00:19:54,499 --> 00:19:52,139
up with it fairly quickly but it was

420
00:19:56,449 --> 00:19:54,509
moving but you know was it moving under

421
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,459
its own power or was it moving because

422
00:20:02,599 --> 00:19:58,320
of air currents that's you know that's

423
00:20:06,499 --> 00:20:02,609
the question yeah there's a complication

424
00:20:10,579 --> 00:20:06,509
because to the to the West in Ohio there

425
00:20:15,199 --> 00:20:10,589
were just before the Mantell sighting

426
00:20:18,709 --> 00:20:15,209
there were reports of UFOs that really

427
00:20:20,149 --> 00:20:18,719
are not obviously explainable and the

428
00:20:22,399 --> 00:20:20,159
question always is then are these

429
00:20:26,389 --> 00:20:22,409
related to what happened a little bit

430
00:20:29,269 --> 00:20:26,399
later that day in Kentucky and and and

431
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,279
the mental sighting it's it's I'm just

432
00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:31,440
not sure the case is solved and I used

433
00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:34,260
to believe it was but I think that

434
00:20:39,410 --> 00:20:36,150
I know that somebody who investigated

435
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:39,420
the case was telling me that it is a

436
00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:43,290
myth that menthol blacked out because he

437
00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:46,740
lacked an oxygen mask that's part of the

438
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:48,540
mythology of the story he says this

439
00:20:51,890 --> 00:20:51,210
isn't true that that should not have

440
00:20:55,130 --> 00:20:51,900
happened

441
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:55,140
we just really may never know as with so

442
00:21:01,780 --> 00:20:57,600
much of this you know we only speculate

443
00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:01,790
and just have to live with ambiguity

444
00:21:05,390 --> 00:21:03,720
well you would think though that with a

445
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:05,400
weather balloon there there would have

446
00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:09,120
been some a record lease of one that had

447
00:21:14,180 --> 00:21:11,340
been released you know within that time

448
00:21:16,190 --> 00:21:14,190
period within that general area because

449
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:16,200
I mean I mean they go up high and they

450
00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:18,320
can travel quite far but you know

451
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:20,100
considering the direction that

452
00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:22,110
originated from going across Kentucky

453
00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:24,750
then somebody say in southern Illinois

454
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,390
southern Indiana or even Terry like you

455
00:21:31,580 --> 00:21:29,520
said in Ohio you know there should have

456
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:31,590
been a record setting out this session

457
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:33,330
that weather balloon was releases us in

458
00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:36,330
such time today well as I understand I

459
00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:38,460
was classified at that time it wasn't

460
00:21:44,210 --> 00:21:41,070
really until Everett rappel looked into

461
00:21:46,550 --> 00:21:44,220
the case again in 52 when he started

462
00:21:51,350 --> 00:21:46,560
with Project Blue Book it wasn't until

463
00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:51,360
then that the skyhook program was you

464
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:54,900
know the clearance had been lifted but

465
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:58,050
it was in 1848 it was need-to-know this

466
00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:00,000
was a navy project I was really

467
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:02,750
classified even the the Air Force

468
00:22:08,450 --> 00:22:05,130
investigators didn't know about it so it

469
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:08,460
wasn't on the list as a possible

470
00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:10,770
explanation but it was one as Mark just

471
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:13,950
said that ed rappel glommed onto when he

472
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:17,370
became head of Blue Book well there were

473
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:19,890
there were and any of course this was

474
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:22,170
still during the the period when there

475
00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:25,130
was a rash of UFO reports all over the

476
00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:28,320
the country and it was getting quite a

477
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:30,150
bit of attention in the press I mean

478
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:32,190
certainly more so than we've seen in

479
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:34,260
recent years

480
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:36,510
I guess perhaps because of the

481
00:22:43,940 --> 00:22:39,770
uniqueness of the of the top topic and

482
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:43,950
the fact that poor Earthlings were

483
00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:46,710
getting a little bit more adventuresome

484
00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:47,560
and and

485
00:22:53,610 --> 00:22:50,440
thinking about getting into space

486
00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:53,620
ourselves so I think a couple of a

487
00:22:59,100 --> 00:22:56,500
couple of things one these things were

488
00:23:00,990 --> 00:22:59,110
extremely novel at the time and in

489
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:01,000
addition that there was the expectation

490
00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:07,120
that the mystery would be solved and boy

491
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:13,180
well I don't know yeah can I just say

492
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:15,070
real quickly this is Mark again Jerry I

493
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:16,780
just want to say it's really a thrill to

494
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:19,690
be sharing this airtime with you oh this

495
00:23:25,260 --> 00:23:22,570
is a great just a great program and like

496
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:25,270
I say it's classic ufology although all

497
00:23:31,110 --> 00:23:28,480
the way you know it is which is which is

498
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:31,120
something that's that's a missing out

499
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:32,590
you know with all these podcasts that

500
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:34,570
are around you have a bunch of people

501
00:23:38,430 --> 00:23:36,510
sitting around telling jokes half the

502
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:38,440
aftertime some of which are not

503
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:41,410
certainly not as funny as pie but I hear

504
00:23:47,220 --> 00:23:44,290
that the the break is coming up so we'll

505
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:47,230
be back in a few minutes with our guest

506
00:23:52,890 --> 00:23:49,930
the evening talking about dr. J Allen

507
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:52,900
Hynek and the early days of ufology and

508
00:23:56,340 --> 00:23:54,730
we'll be getting in the cook the movies

509
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:56,350
Close Encounters a lot of other

510
00:24:07,440 --> 00:23:58,450
including is prescribed

511
00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:11,430
now that to explore in the bazaar with

512
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:13,990
two of the most electrifying researchers

513
00:24:22,830 --> 00:24:17,290
in apparel your hosts Timothy Becker

514
00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:22,840
late Anton Swartz and welcome back to

515
00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:24,790
exploring the bazaar I'm Kim Swartz

516
00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:27,580
tonight we are talking about J Allen

517
00:24:32,430 --> 00:24:30,120
Hynek with our guest mark O'Connell and

518
00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:32,440
jerry jerome Clark

519
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:36,790
so gentlemen I is something that I found

520
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:39,730
interesting during the last segment when

521
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:43,200
we were talking about some of these

522
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:48,880
early Air Force a project sign and

523
00:24:57,900 --> 00:24:53,710
grudge and all those even though it's

524
00:25:01,410 --> 00:24:57,910
but it was denied over the years these

525
00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:01,420
were set up basically to debunk UFO

526
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:04,780
sightings am I correct about that well

527
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:06,880
not necessarily a project grudge

528
00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:10,090
certainly was project sign was really an

529
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:12,220
open minded inquiry and in fact its

530
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:15,310
first at least a significant faction of

531
00:25:19,860 --> 00:25:17,590
its personnel we're inclined to believe

532
00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:19,870
that UFOs were interplanetary spacecraft

533
00:25:26,580 --> 00:25:23,920
and the sign was followed by project

534
00:25:30,180 --> 00:25:26,590
rights which even as that the project

535
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:30,190
name suggests was extremely hostile the

536
00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:34,210
UFOs Bluebook for about a couple of

537
00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:36,790
years under captain repelled did a

538
00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:38,980
reasonably good job of investigating

539
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:42,070
cases without prior assumptions about

540
00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:44,850
what they would find but then from about

541
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:49,720
late 53 the latter 53 until it died in

542
00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:52,930
1969 Bluebook was a public relations

543
00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:55,750
exercise and its mission was to debunk

544
00:26:00,060 --> 00:25:58,240
UFO reports but well weird times in the

545
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:00,070
early days when there was some real

546
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:05,770
investigation going on Glenn Tim oh well

547
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:07,360
you know I was just wanting what what do

548
00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:09,010
you think the turning point was was that

549
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:13,740
the activity over Washington DC in 97

550
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:18,490
1952 that got the the Pentagon and the

551
00:26:21,390 --> 00:26:21,010
Air Force so concerned that they had to

552
00:26:23,550 --> 00:26:21,400
go out of

553
00:26:26,910 --> 00:26:23,560
the way to start the bunking yeah all of

554
00:26:29,070 --> 00:26:26,920
this that had a big part in it and that

555
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:29,080
was also when the CIA got involved was

556
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:30,940
after the Washington merry-go-round so

557
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:33,370
yeah I think it may not have been the

558
00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:35,200
only reason for the turnaround but it

559
00:26:39,570 --> 00:26:38,020
was definitely a factor yeah I think it

560
00:26:41,670 --> 00:26:39,580
was a precipitating factor the

561
00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:41,680
communications channel got clogged up

562
00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:44,860
which really upset the national security

563
00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:48,220
apparatus and they thought we have got

564
00:26:53,250 --> 00:26:50,140
to get rid of this thing and this thing

565
00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:53,260
was not puzzling UFO reports but

566
00:26:59,760 --> 00:26:55,900
irritating intrusive flying saucer

567
00:27:02,310 --> 00:26:59,770
sightings which distracted from the the

568
00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:02,320
real national security mission as the

569
00:27:07,070 --> 00:27:04,420
military and intelligence agencies

570
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:07,080
thought and they just had to discredit

571
00:27:14,130 --> 00:27:10,450
UFOs as anything the public should

572
00:27:17,550 --> 00:27:14,140
concern itself with well now alien yeah

573
00:27:20,850 --> 00:27:17,560
in the movie lab what 1950 is six the

574
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:20,860
UFO film which is one of the better

575
00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:23,710
documentaries on the subject they seem

576
00:27:30,450 --> 00:27:26,080
to indicate that there was almost this

577
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:30,460
kind of a tug of war between those in

578
00:27:35,730 --> 00:27:33,460
the government who felt that there was

579
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,740
something to the subject of course the

580
00:27:42,450 --> 00:27:38,080
interplanetary theory was always pushed

581
00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:42,460
which I find a very suspect to be honest

582
00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:44,740
with you it's kind of like a saying you

583
00:27:50,010 --> 00:27:47,140
know we'd rather you not believe in UFOs

584
00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:50,020
but if you believe in UFOs then they

585
00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:51,910
have to be again a little men from Mars

586
00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:55,120
well the thing like I have to disagree

587
00:28:01,350 --> 00:27:58,000
with that because in those days it was a

588
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:01,360
perfectly plausible hypothesis because

589
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:04,330
these things appeared not to been built

590
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:08,250
by an earthly power

591
00:28:13,290 --> 00:28:11,440
it was very logical to conclude that the

592
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:13,300
alternative explanation was that these

593
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:16,480
were visitors from other planets and in

594
00:28:21,540 --> 00:28:19,120
the early days many scientists believed

595
00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:21,550
in Mars and even Venus yes Hammond well

596
00:28:26,670 --> 00:28:23,950
well that's real early and they thought

597
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:26,680
that these saucers could be coming from

598
00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:28,600
those places later as we learned of

599
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:30,100
course the Mars and Venus are not

600
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:32,890
inhabited they push this out into other

601
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:35,530
solar systems but no it was a

602
00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:37,570
the only plausible hypothesis at the

603
00:28:44,270 --> 00:28:41,470
time and it was one almost universally

604
00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:44,280
championed by you know UFO proponent and

605
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:48,790
in project signs final report there are

606
00:28:55,290 --> 00:28:51,250
several pages of that report dedicated

607
00:28:57,750 --> 00:28:55,300
to a very very serious discussion of the

608
00:29:01,140 --> 00:28:57,760
possibility of life on Mars and Venus as

609
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:01,150
well as a very serious discussion of the

610
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:04,270
aerodynamic properties of orbs and

611
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:07,990
wingless cigar-shaped or disc shaped

612
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:10,000
objects this was taken very very

613
00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:11,320
seriously and then of course the

614
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:14,200
estimate of the situation the the

615
00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:15,850
Special Rapporteur should by sign that

616
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:17,980
really strongly championed an

617
00:29:22,550 --> 00:29:20,770
extraterrestrial hypothesis but got shot

618
00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:22,560
down immediately

619
00:29:30,150 --> 00:29:26,350
well now mark what in your research on

620
00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:30,160
dr. Hynek what would you say was the the

621
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:34,600
first case that he looked into that it

622
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:38,650
kind of said his thinking apart from the

623
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:41,200
critical the belief system that the Air

624
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:43,090
Force was probably trying to get him to

625
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:47,410
to push on the public well it it really

626
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:49,120
didn't take long for him to start

627
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:51,130
scratching his head over certain things

628
00:29:56,580 --> 00:29:53,440
the big thing in in the early years of

629
00:29:59,300 --> 00:29:56,590
his work with the Air Force was not a

630
00:30:03,990 --> 00:29:59,310
not any one particular case but an

631
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:04,000
overall look at the numbers in those

632
00:30:09,060 --> 00:30:06,250
first years of the US UFO phenomenon

633
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:09,070
from 47 up to about 52 and Hynek

634
00:30:12,770 --> 00:30:11,290
rejoined the Air Force for Project Blue

635
00:30:16,290 --> 00:30:12,780
Book

636
00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:16,300
there was this consistent a consistent

637
00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:20,020
residue of 20% of the cases that could

638
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:21,940
not be explained by Hynek or by anyone

639
00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:24,490
else so the consistency of that 20%

640
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:26,830
really started to rankle him it really

641
00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:29,410
stuck in his craw he thought there

642
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:31,270
there's something strange in the fact

643
00:30:37,530 --> 00:30:34,230
that there's this consistent level of

644
00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:37,540
mystery no matter how many of these

645
00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:39,400
other cases we can explain away as

646
00:30:44,190 --> 00:30:41,920
simple misidentifications of venus or or

647
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:44,200
meteors there's always that mysterious

648
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:47,490
20% so that was already in his head

649
00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:50,940
but then in 53 he was sent out by

650
00:30:55,850 --> 00:30:54,030
Project Blue Book for his first field

651
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:55,860
investigation up until this point

652
00:31:01,549 --> 00:30:58,050
Hynek had simply been looking at reports

653
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:01,559
while sitting at his desk at his school

654
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:04,290
in Ohio suddenly for the first time he

655
00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:06,360
sent out to South Dakota and North

656
00:31:11,210 --> 00:31:08,760
Dakota to investigate a case in the

657
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:11,220
field on his own and this is the first

658
00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:14,610
time he actually has FaceTime with UFO

659
00:31:18,380 --> 00:31:16,980
witnesses and in this case there are a

660
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:18,390
lot of witnesses

661
00:31:23,540 --> 00:31:21,840
there are probably oh I'm probably under

662
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:23,550
estimating this but let's say at least a

663
00:31:28,730 --> 00:31:25,710
dozen witnesses between these two cases

664
00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:28,740
who Hynek interviewed personally well

665
00:31:38,390 --> 00:31:32,190
what were the two cases it's the Black

666
00:31:41,450 --> 00:31:38,400
Hawk Bismarck case some air the nation

667
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:41,460
was covered with volunteer air spotters

668
00:31:45,770 --> 00:31:43,770
Oh yessir world war ii who are

669
00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:45,780
constantly scanning the skies looking

670
00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:49,260
for soviet bombers okay well one night

671
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:52,230
outside of Rapid City South Dakota the

672
00:31:57,980 --> 00:31:55,200
local spotter sees a light that's

673
00:32:01,310 --> 00:31:57,990
behaving very strangely in the sky she

674
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:01,320
notifies the local ground observer Corps

675
00:32:08,419 --> 00:32:06,600
Filter Center in Rapid City the the man

676
00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:08,429
in charge of that center immediately

677
00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:09,900
notifies Ellsworth Air Force Base a

678
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:12,300
couple miles to the east and they all

679
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:14,450
start seeing this light in the sky

680
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:16,320
simultaneously they're they're seeing

681
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:18,110
the same movements in the same velocity

682
00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:20,490
simultaneously so they're all clearly

683
00:32:26,660 --> 00:32:23,550
looking at the same thing in the sky and

684
00:32:29,299 --> 00:32:26,670
they observe it for a while and they

685
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:29,309
send out a couple of planes from

686
00:32:34,370 --> 00:32:31,679
Ellsworth Air Force Base and a couple of

687
00:32:36,110 --> 00:32:34,380
pilots trail this object for a couple

688
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,120
hundred miles and they start to get very

689
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:38,880
very nervous and ask if they can cut off

690
00:32:42,380 --> 00:32:41,130
the pursuit and return to base and all

691
00:32:43,970 --> 00:32:42,390
this time they're never able to get

692
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:43,980
closer than about three miles to the

693
00:32:48,590 --> 00:32:46,650
object so it causes quite a stir and

694
00:32:51,070 --> 00:32:48,600
then the object zips off to the

695
00:32:54,669 --> 00:32:51,080
northeast towards Bismarck North Dakota

696
00:32:57,230 --> 00:32:54,679
so a short time later a ground observer

697
00:32:59,000 --> 00:32:57,240
ground observer staffer in Bismarck

698
00:33:00,620 --> 00:32:59,010
North Dakota sees the same thing

699
00:33:03,230 --> 00:33:00,630
approaching from

700
00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:03,240
from the southwest exactly as he

701
00:33:09,050 --> 00:33:07,350
expected it to and in time his entire

702
00:33:12,140 --> 00:33:09,060
group of people are out on the roof of

703
00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:12,150
their building watching several lighted

704
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:14,790
objects cavorting about in the sky the

705
00:33:21,410 --> 00:33:17,370
radar operator at the local civilian air

706
00:33:23,150 --> 00:33:21,420
for airport in in Bismarck is watching

707
00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:23,160
the exact same things from the control

708
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:26,190
tower so it's a it's it's a consistent

709
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:28,410
case there are many many witnesses many

710
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,410
many credible witnesses and this is the

711
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:34,080
first case Hynek goes out to investigate

712
00:33:38,770 --> 00:33:36,690
Naru felt had already gone out to South

713
00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:38,780
Dakota to investigate

714
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:41,640
Andrew pelts case report was a little

715
00:33:45,290 --> 00:33:43,770
wishy-washy he thought it was a puzzling

716
00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:45,300
case but he couldn't really draw any

717
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:46,860
conclusions while Hynek wasn't happy

718
00:33:50,390 --> 00:33:48,810
with that Hynek actually found a lot of

719
00:33:52,940 --> 00:33:50,400
the witnesses to be extremely credible

720
00:33:56,540 --> 00:33:52,950
and he found a lot of their testimony to

721
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:56,550
be consistent and believable and one of

722
00:34:00,110 --> 00:33:57,810
the interesting things I thought about

723
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:00,120
this case was all of the witnesses in in

724
00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:03,090
Bismarck North Dakota said that at one

725
00:34:06,830 --> 00:34:04,740
point there were three objects that they

726
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:06,840
were monitoring and as a military

727
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:10,290
transport plane flew overhead these

728
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:12,570
three lighted objects started flashing

729
00:34:16,460 --> 00:34:14,610
what appeared to be signals at each

730
00:34:18,620 --> 00:34:16,470
other there seemed to be a signal

731
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:18,630
passing from one lighted object to the

732
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:21,540
next as the military transport plane

733
00:34:27,410 --> 00:34:25,170
flew by so Hynek ends up writing a very

734
00:34:29,630 --> 00:34:27,420
very detailed report and he essentially

735
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:29,640
throws his hands up in the air over this

736
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:31,650
case he can't explain it away

737
00:34:35,540 --> 00:34:33,930
he can't say what it is but he can't

738
00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:35,550
discount the testimony of so many

739
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:37,680
credible witnesses so for the first time

740
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:41,670
Hynek is faced with a real-life

741
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:44,250
situation where he's inter interviewed

742
00:34:48,410 --> 00:34:46,800
all these witnesses face to face and he

743
00:34:50,930 --> 00:34:48,420
sincerely believes that they saw

744
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:50,940
something very real so it was a

745
00:34:55,010 --> 00:34:52,260
watershed for Hynek and it really

746
00:34:56,990 --> 00:34:55,020
started to change his thinking it makes

747
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:57,000
a big difference when you're actually

748
00:35:02,330 --> 00:34:58,650
out in the field talking to the

749
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:02,340
witnesses face to face mm-hmm yeah we

750
00:35:07,310 --> 00:35:04,800
didn't get a profound impact at were the

751
00:35:09,260 --> 00:35:07,320
sightings on subsequent nights or was it

752
00:35:10,940 --> 00:35:09,270
just one evening or it was one evening

753
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:10,950
it was one evening the whole thing

754
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:13,740
transpired in about if I'm remembering

755
00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:14,220
right

756
00:35:17,780 --> 00:35:16,200
was about two hours total elapsed time

757
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:17,790
between the sightings in South Dakota

758
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:21,170
and the sightings in North Dakota so

759
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:24,330
yeah and an Hynek was Hynek was very

760
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:26,010
critical of roo pelts report he thought

761
00:35:28,820 --> 00:35:27,450
that repelled ignored a lot of evidence

762
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:28,830
and didn't really pay enough attention

763
00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:30,960
to the human factor

764
00:35:35,870 --> 00:35:32,820
but again Hynek ended up calling it an

765
00:35:37,790 --> 00:35:35,880
Alice in Wonderland case because it was

766
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:37,800
just completely baffling to him but

767
00:35:43,730 --> 00:35:40,560
again it couldn't be explained away you

768
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:43,740
know as a normal as a normal objects

769
00:35:51,020 --> 00:35:47,040
under normal circumstances well now of

770
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:51,030
course during the the early period of

771
00:35:56,540 --> 00:35:54,810
ufology you had a quite a number of what

772
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:56,550
would seem to be at least in my way of

773
00:36:02,660 --> 00:36:00,720
thinking impressively cases now at Jerry

774
00:36:05,450 --> 00:36:02,670
how would they report at the Center for

775
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:05,460
UFO studies how are the reports filed

776
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:08,609
was it under the types of objects or

777
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:12,810
just the folders on particular cases I

778
00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:16,560
think they were they were it was each

779
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:19,020
file which I spent a lot of time in it

780
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:22,260
did mark yes it was for a particular

781
00:36:30,349 --> 00:36:26,250
case some were from Blue Book somewhere

782
00:36:34,099 --> 00:36:30,359
from who falls somewhere from civilian

783
00:36:36,859 --> 00:36:34,109
groups that had folded and given their

784
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:36,869
files to Kufa so there's an enormous

785
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:39,990
amount of material er that really gives

786
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:42,690
you not only a phenomenological history

787
00:36:48,770 --> 00:36:45,690
of UFOs but also a social history of you

788
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:48,780
ecology mm-hmm well it's just extremely

789
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:51,359
interesting stuff well well now what

790
00:36:55,070 --> 00:36:53,010
would you say was the most interesting

791
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:55,080
stuff I mean what what seemed to impress

792
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:55,650
it

793
00:37:01,700 --> 00:36:58,290
Hynek the most I mean I think of things

794
00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:01,710
like the Lubbock lights one of my

795
00:37:07,070 --> 00:37:04,680
favorite cases of course is the Loveland

796
00:37:09,890 --> 00:37:07,080
the text was it in Texas case you know

797
00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:09,900
where the cars are stalled and November

798
00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:13,800
1957 yeah that that to me I mean it

799
00:37:18,740 --> 00:37:15,830
probably has impressed me more than that

800
00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:18,750
any other case that I could think of in

801
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:21,180
fact that I've recently been going back

802
00:37:25,470 --> 00:37:22,560
and looking at but you know some of the

803
00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:25,480
early clippings and there even some

804
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:28,030
interviews with the eyes like that she

805
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:29,820
wasn't the sheriff one of the witnesses

806
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:32,710
yeah the sheriff had the strange team of

807
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:38,760
well why did you why don't you give us a

808
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:40,450
little bit of detail on that dead Jerri

809
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:43,330
from what what you can the refocuses it

810
00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:46,450
was it was a series of reports in the

811
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:48,670
late at night early morning hours I

812
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:52,090
think between just after the Soviets had

813
00:37:57,660 --> 00:37:55,330
launched Sputnik two squinted ently or

814
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:57,670
otherwise but a variety of people began

815
00:38:02,940 --> 00:38:00,400
reporting seeing large luminous objects

816
00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:02,950
hovering near the ground or on the

817
00:38:11,099 --> 00:38:05,950
ground and knocking out their electrical

818
00:38:13,230 --> 00:38:11,109
systems and their cars and this was

819
00:38:16,859 --> 00:38:13,240
quite exciting and some of the witnesses

820
00:38:19,710 --> 00:38:16,869
were police officers so the Air Force

821
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:19,720
had to respond to this because this was

822
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:21,910
a front-page story all over the country

823
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:24,130
and the Air Force sent a guy who

824
00:38:29,099 --> 00:38:27,520
probably spent a dollar there and I came

825
00:38:31,650 --> 00:38:29,109
back and explained all his ball

826
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:31,660
lightning even though what the witnesses

827
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:34,720
described was far larger than ball

828
00:38:40,590 --> 00:38:37,330
lightning which as as big as gets about

829
00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:40,600
the size of a basketball and these were

830
00:38:45,660 --> 00:38:42,700
they were describing objects of one

831
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:45,670
hundred two hundred feet long and also

832
00:38:50,340 --> 00:38:47,890
the weather conditions were not the sort

833
00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:50,350
that generate ball lightning was a

834
00:38:56,490 --> 00:38:54,550
complete joke and to Hynek in his UFO

835
00:38:58,590 --> 00:38:56,500
experience but goes into the Loveland

836
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,600
sightings which are still remain as you

837
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:00,400
say you know impressive and fascinating

838
00:39:07,859 --> 00:39:04,560
any compilation of case for UFOs is as

839
00:39:10,490 --> 00:39:07,869
physical objects and of unknown origin

840
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:10,500
you've got to include the Loveland cases

841
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:13,359
now I am along right up about the Baha'i

842
00:39:20,370 --> 00:39:16,390
encyclopedia now mark where there are

843
00:39:23,580 --> 00:39:20,380
other cases that led up to this site and

844
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:23,590
group of sightings that led up to level

845
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:30,880
'end yeah well see joshan vehicle

846
00:39:35,490 --> 00:39:32,710
interference cases which have been there

847
00:39:37,609 --> 00:39:35,500
from the beginning yeah it's really

848
00:39:39,089 --> 00:39:37,619
unfortunate that Hynek wasn't able to

849
00:39:41,609 --> 00:39:39,099
investigate the

850
00:39:45,779 --> 00:39:41,619
and sightings he was he was so wrapped

851
00:39:48,420 --> 00:39:45,789
up in the sputnik controversy that he

852
00:39:53,089 --> 00:39:48,430
was not able to do any investigation of

853
00:39:56,309 --> 00:39:53,099
the level and sightings and in fact he

854
00:39:59,219 --> 00:39:56,319
in a decision he later regretted he

855
00:40:01,380 --> 00:39:59,229
agreed with the air force's verdict of

856
00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:01,390
ball lightning and was actually quite

857
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:03,640
embarrassed in later years that he had

858
00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:05,650
that he had made such a stupid stupid

859
00:40:11,609 --> 00:40:09,609
comment yeah I you know a ball lightning

860
00:40:15,059 --> 00:40:11,619
is a course of a pretty mysterious

861
00:40:18,539 --> 00:40:15,069
phenomenon itself but it doesn't seem to

862
00:40:20,910 --> 00:40:18,549
lend itself too much really to the TUI

863
00:40:23,309 --> 00:40:20,920
you know as far as UFO sightings go

864
00:40:26,099 --> 00:40:23,319
because like you mentioned that Jerry

865
00:40:28,769 --> 00:40:26,109
the duration of the the ball lightning

866
00:40:31,859 --> 00:40:28,779
is usually very very short I mean it's

867
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:31,869
not like godly seconds seconds yeah and

868
00:40:38,339 --> 00:40:34,930
I don't I don't know if it could could

869
00:40:42,839 --> 00:40:38,349
it does a stall a car's engine but yeah

870
00:40:44,430 --> 00:40:42,849
you know now I don't think so right now

871
00:40:46,349 --> 00:40:44,440
think about that these are I think I

872
00:40:48,959 --> 00:40:46,359
think there are about fifteen fifteen

873
00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:48,969
sightings that night yes and land level

874
00:40:55,319 --> 00:40:52,150
in Texas is about as flat a landscape as

875
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:55,329
you can imagine so just imagine yourself

876
00:41:00,689 --> 00:40:57,839
driving out at night seeing this

877
00:41:03,359 --> 00:41:00,699
200-foot glowing egg parked on the

878
00:41:06,299 --> 00:41:03,369
highway in front of you your car goes

879
00:41:09,630 --> 00:41:06,309
dead where are you going to hide there's

880
00:41:10,979 --> 00:41:09,640
no place to go that that case is really

881
00:41:14,099 --> 00:41:10,989
kind of chilling it still gives me the

882
00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:14,109
chills thinking is I indeed like I say

883
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:17,529
it's one of my favorite now the Lubbock

884
00:41:23,930 --> 00:41:19,359
lights was that around the same period

885
00:41:27,479 --> 00:41:23,940
of time I was in 1951 so that was before

886
00:41:29,249 --> 00:41:27,489
yeah and and and what what was that all

887
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:29,259
about I mean I know what a teenager took

888
00:41:35,459 --> 00:41:32,890
the summer controversial photo a series

889
00:41:37,170 --> 00:41:35,469
of photographs that were said by I think

890
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:37,180
the Air Force since they say that they

891
00:41:41,249 --> 00:41:39,609
were reflections with street lamps on on

892
00:41:42,589 --> 00:41:41,259
the bottom of geese or something like

893
00:41:47,219 --> 00:41:42,599
that flying in formation

894
00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:47,229
plovers was your bird yeah that makes a

895
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:49,900
sound called plover so if you know the

896
00:41:54,300 --> 00:41:52,330
word onomatopoeia that's what your

897
00:41:55,350 --> 00:41:54,310
driving yeah something is named after

898
00:41:57,630 --> 00:41:55,360
the sound it makes

899
00:42:00,030 --> 00:41:57,640
yeah but how hard Junior's a

900
00:42:02,850 --> 00:42:00,040
photographer you're talking about yes

901
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:02,860
was interviewed many years later as a

902
00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:05,890
perfectly credible respectable guy and

903
00:42:10,770 --> 00:42:08,380
score that the photographs were were

904
00:42:13,290 --> 00:42:10,780
authentic and the case is really hard to

905
00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:13,300
explain to the the official story as you

906
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:14,740
say there were two different

907
00:42:20,490 --> 00:42:17,770
explanations one was moths to Evelyn was

908
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:20,500
Birds reflecting streetlamp I'll go for

909
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,270
the UH go for the birds before I go for

910
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:24,160
the balls I think yeah although you know

911
00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:26,680
I have seen I remember being in Atlantic

912
00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:30,430
City and a couple of years ago and we're

913
00:42:34,590 --> 00:42:32,950
out at a restaurant on the boardwalk you

914
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:34,600
know fish and chips type of place and

915
00:42:40,290 --> 00:42:37,450
people are looking up at the sky and way

916
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:40,300
up above one of the hotels it seems like

917
00:42:47,220 --> 00:42:44,290
there is a flotilla of UFOs and people

918
00:42:49,230 --> 00:42:47,230
are pointing and saying UFOs and I had

919
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:49,240
to point out that even though I am miss

920
00:42:55,980 --> 00:42:51,940
notice mister UFO these were not UFOs

921
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:55,990
these were bats I'm at and edit it

922
00:43:01,380 --> 00:42:58,090
really I mean I looked at him and I said

923
00:43:04,260 --> 00:43:01,390
well they they really do look like yeah

924
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:04,270
you know the UFOs the way they were

925
00:43:10,620 --> 00:43:06,970
gliding and coming in and buzzing the

926
00:43:13,410 --> 00:43:10,630
the hotel the era but they weren't they

927
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:13,420
weren't against by any by any of it

928
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:16,480
means but in in West Texas in the summer

929
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:18,970
of 1951 when the sightings were in

930
00:43:26,370 --> 00:43:21,810
daylight when yes described flying wings

931
00:43:29,370 --> 00:43:26,380
and at night nocturnally they described

932
00:43:32,060 --> 00:43:29,380
a pattern of lights and a v-shaped

933
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:32,070
formation it's pretty hard not to draw

934
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:34,960
conclusion that that these lights would

935
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:36,700
have looked like flying wings if they

936
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:39,130
had been seen in daylight so there was a

937
00:43:43,140 --> 00:43:41,200
whole series of reports that was coming

938
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:43,150
from that area I mean it wasn't just

939
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:46,330
this fellow what happened took the whole

940
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:49,090
bit around any sightings yeah and and I

941
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:51,370
think that's the thing that probably is

942
00:43:55,710 --> 00:43:53,530
forgotten about a lot of these cases you

943
00:43:59,310 --> 00:43:55,720
know you kind of can if you don't know

944
00:44:01,230 --> 00:43:59,320
the details of this you know you got a

945
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:01,240
you can kind of almost pick and choose

946
00:44:06,279 --> 00:44:04,810
what you want to you know believe I know

947
00:44:07,809 --> 00:44:06,289
another case

948
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:07,819
and I don't know if this was ever

949
00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:10,880
investigated of course by the the air

950
00:44:15,009 --> 00:44:14,150
force but there was a town in New Mexico

951
00:44:17,739 --> 00:44:15,019
and help me out here

952
00:44:19,059 --> 00:44:17,749
we're at high noon they they were

953
00:44:22,179 --> 00:44:19,069
supposed to be like hundreds of

954
00:44:24,939 --> 00:44:22,189
spaceships over the the town oh yeah I

955
00:44:26,559 --> 00:44:24,949
know checked all that was a 1950 spring

956
00:44:29,789 --> 00:44:26,569
up yeah yeah that was as some people

957
00:44:37,919 --> 00:44:29,799
said it was in retaliation for Roswell

958
00:44:41,199 --> 00:44:37,929
but I uh okay well that explains it Oh

959
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:41,209
somebody ought to tell me somebody ought

960
00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:43,249
to retaliate for Roswell that's where

961
00:44:49,509 --> 00:44:46,609
that's for darn darn sure but there were

962
00:44:51,370 --> 00:44:49,519
a lot of actual witnesses to that and I

963
00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:51,380
have seen a couple of photographs of

964
00:44:56,109 --> 00:44:52,640
that I don't know they said they were

965
00:44:58,059 --> 00:44:56,119
they were willow wisps or the official

966
00:45:00,959 --> 00:44:58,069
explanation is that this was an

967
00:45:05,709 --> 00:45:00,969
exploding balloon but that is in no way

968
00:45:08,589 --> 00:45:05,719
no but what the witnesses oh no III of

969
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,599
daylight discs yeah yeah no I heard that

970
00:45:12,399 --> 00:45:10,400
they were like will it like cotton balls

971
00:45:15,189 --> 00:45:12,409
or will-o-wisps or whatever you you know

972
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:15,199
you call that I don't know but that's a

973
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:17,390
that's an intriguing case and in fact I

974
00:45:24,459 --> 00:45:19,609
think in some of these early cases you

975
00:45:26,799 --> 00:45:24,469
did have a more of a pattern of the you

976
00:45:28,989 --> 00:45:26,809
know follow-up sightings where today you

977
00:45:30,699 --> 00:45:28,999
know somebody in the Nebraska or North

978
00:45:33,579 --> 00:45:30,709
Carolina see something in the sky maybe

979
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:33,589
that you can take a video of it but it's

980
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:35,650
there one minute it's caught on your

981
00:45:40,599 --> 00:45:38,209
cell phone the camera you put it up on

982
00:45:42,729 --> 00:45:40,609
YouTube and there doesn't seem to be any

983
00:45:45,549 --> 00:45:42,739
subsequent follow-up on most of these

984
00:45:47,609 --> 00:45:45,559
things that was something that always

985
00:45:50,019 --> 00:45:47,619
really frustrated Hynek in his in his

986
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:50,029
case investigations was the fact that

987
00:45:57,339 --> 00:45:54,609
there was never any there was never any

988
00:45:59,229 --> 00:45:57,349
temporal continuation I'm not sure if

989
00:46:01,659 --> 00:45:59,239
that was the phrase he used but in other

990
00:46:05,909 --> 00:46:01,669
words it you know if somebody somebody

991
00:46:08,979 --> 00:46:05,919
saw something in the sky over Milwaukee

992
00:46:11,919 --> 00:46:08,989
nobody in Chicago then saw it in the sky

993
00:46:14,169 --> 00:46:11,929
or Chicago you know a half hour later

994
00:46:16,419 --> 00:46:14,179
the the the case I just described the

995
00:46:18,699 --> 00:46:16,429
South Dakota the the Bismarck in

996
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:18,709
Blackhawk cases one of the rare

997
00:46:21,730 --> 00:46:19,970
exceptions

998
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:21,740
where the phenomenon actually continues

999
00:46:26,020 --> 00:46:24,290
on from one location to the next but

1000
00:46:26,349 --> 00:46:26,030
that was extremely rare and for the most

1001
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:26,359
part

1002
00:46:32,109 --> 00:46:29,810
Hynek would get very very frustrated

1003
00:46:33,370 --> 00:46:32,119
that so many cases lacked that quality

1004
00:46:36,130 --> 00:46:33,380
because that's something you would

1005
00:46:39,070 --> 00:46:36,140
expect you would expect the object to be

1006
00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:39,080
seen you know in multiple locations by

1007
00:46:43,359 --> 00:46:40,270
multiple witnesses

1008
00:46:46,270 --> 00:46:43,369
well now exactly true that's beautiful

1009
00:46:49,450 --> 00:46:46,280
sightings are really almost always

1010
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:49,460
tightly contained in space it's one of

1011
00:46:54,849 --> 00:46:53,330
the puzzling aspects well I'm thinking

1012
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:54,859
of another case of course would be the

1013
00:47:03,000 --> 00:46:58,010
Hudson Valley reports where they were

1014
00:47:05,260 --> 00:47:03,010
seen over a you know a fairly wide

1015
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:05,270
parameter the the sightings you know

1016
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:07,250
they weren't just contained in one area

1017
00:47:15,820 --> 00:47:10,970
probably a stretch in 50 miles or or

1018
00:47:18,460 --> 00:47:15,830
more and caused quite a hubbub and in

1019
00:47:21,339 --> 00:47:18,470
fact dr. Hynek was at the town hall

1020
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:21,349
meeting that they had up there at the

1021
00:47:27,250 --> 00:47:25,130
Brewster High School because like three

1022
00:47:29,770 --> 00:47:27,260
four hundred people who had a witness

1023
00:47:31,839 --> 00:47:29,780
the these uh I guess triangular

1024
00:47:33,730 --> 00:47:31,849
boomerang shaped objects of the sky and

1025
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:33,740
wanted to know what the heck was going

1026
00:47:41,050 --> 00:47:38,240
on and of course that the the yet we

1027
00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:41,060
still are - an explanation to this very

1028
00:47:46,270 --> 00:47:43,520
day there are some who say that there

1029
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:46,280
was a more of a natural explanation to

1030
00:47:52,010 --> 00:47:48,800
it and others think that we were being

1031
00:47:59,930 --> 00:47:52,020
invaded by some intergalactic

1032
00:47:59,940 --> 00:48:04,670
[Music]

1033
00:48:11,630 --> 00:48:09,660
explode the bazaar or e-ticket ride is

1034
00:48:14,910 --> 00:48:11,640
the world of the paranormal

1035
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:14,920
strap yourself in as we traverse the

1036
00:48:22,310 --> 00:48:19,200
universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

1037
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:22,320
ghosts lost world

1038
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:24,730
cryptozoology waters as well as other

1039
00:48:32,970 --> 00:48:28,570
dimensions it's time to take back the

1040
00:48:36,210 --> 00:48:32,980
night and night now your electrifying

1041
00:48:41,010 --> 00:48:36,220
hosts of exploring the bizarre Timothy

1042
00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:41,020
bikini and Kings Wars welcome back to

1043
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:42,790
this second hour of exploring the

1044
00:48:47,250 --> 00:48:45,130
bizarre I'm Tim Schwartz with Timothy

1045
00:48:52,110 --> 00:48:47,260
green Beckley and tonight we are talking

1046
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:52,120
about J Allen Hynek with Mark O'Connell

1047
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:54,430
the author of the Close Encounters man

1048
00:49:01,170 --> 00:48:57,040
how one man made the world believe in

1049
00:49:04,590 --> 00:49:01,180
UFOs and also with this is Jerry Clark

1050
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:04,600
and during I'd like to ask you how did

1051
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:07,710
you get involved in the first place in

1052
00:49:17,970 --> 00:49:12,640
working with that Mister Hynek the first

1053
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:17,980
time I met Allen was in nineteen 1976 I

1054
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:20,890
was living up in Moorhead Minnesota at a

1055
00:49:27,570 --> 00:49:24,910
time and this woman who lived in Fargo

1056
00:49:31,050 --> 00:49:27,580
which is on the other side of the Red

1057
00:49:33,780 --> 00:49:31,060
River from Moorhead Minnesota she had

1058
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:33,790
been traveling with her daughter and her

1059
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:38,410
daughter's boyfriend she was going to to

1060
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:40,450
Bismarck I believe to take a real-estate

1061
00:49:44,580 --> 00:49:42,400
test or something like that I don't

1062
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:44,590
remember all the details but they had a

1063
00:49:50,580 --> 00:49:48,250
very strange experience of missing time

1064
00:49:52,620 --> 00:49:50,590
and confusion they found their car was

1065
00:49:56,250 --> 00:49:52,630
in the ditch and was all very strange

1066
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:56,260
and and so I decided that I will I

1067
00:50:05,850 --> 00:49:58,480
learned about this story from some

1068
00:50:07,890 --> 00:50:05,860
mutual friends and so I called up the

1069
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:07,900
woman it ended up meeting here and

1070
00:50:12,030 --> 00:50:10,090
interviewing the three people all three

1071
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:12,040
of them who'd had this experience and

1072
00:50:17,070 --> 00:50:15,310
eventually we brought in dr. Leo

1073
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:17,080
sprinkle from the University of Wyoming

1074
00:50:22,270 --> 00:50:17,970
to

1075
00:50:25,070 --> 00:50:22,280
hypnotized the two female witnesses and

1076
00:50:28,460 --> 00:50:25,080
they told us you know as a pretty

1077
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:28,470
classic kind of abduction story except

1078
00:50:33,650 --> 00:50:30,810
not with little gray guys but with kind

1079
00:50:35,540 --> 00:50:33,660
of like mommy like creatures and it was

1080
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:35,550
it was quite interesting you know the

1081
00:50:40,339 --> 00:50:37,710
story you know is a story I don't know

1082
00:50:43,070 --> 00:50:40,349
you know but what was interesting was

1083
00:50:44,750 --> 00:50:43,080
that they're there they had there was no

1084
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:44,760
question they had this missing time and

1085
00:50:49,099 --> 00:50:46,800
their car was in a place that it

1086
00:50:51,710 --> 00:50:49,109
shouldn't have been and there was just a

1087
00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:51,720
lot of anomalies about it so anyway

1088
00:50:57,620 --> 00:50:54,300
the case started getting national

1089
00:51:00,500 --> 00:50:57,630
attention and one day I was sitting

1090
00:51:03,589 --> 00:51:00,510
around my house my apartment and the

1091
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:03,599
phone rings and I pick it up and it's

1092
00:51:09,050 --> 00:51:06,240
Allen Hynek now of course I knew we all

1093
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:09,060
nynuk was I known of Allen Hynek since

1094
00:51:17,810 --> 00:51:12,510
the mid 1950s when he was the Astronomy

1095
00:51:20,359 --> 00:51:17,820
columnist for my weekly reader and and I

1096
00:51:24,140 --> 00:51:20,369
just I was stunned it was like God had

1097
00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:24,150
called me personally and he asked if he

1098
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:26,750
could come up and look into this with

1099
00:51:34,220 --> 00:51:30,960
the producer of a local television show

1100
00:51:37,220 --> 00:51:34,230
went on to found The Weather Channel in

1101
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:37,230
later years so Allen came off the time

1102
00:51:43,490 --> 00:51:40,740
of this guy who is very vocally

1103
00:51:46,310 --> 00:51:43,500
skeptical and just yeah he was just sort

1104
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:46,320
of a pain to deal with but we went

1105
00:51:50,420 --> 00:51:48,210
through this we filmed some footage and

1106
00:51:53,570 --> 00:51:50,430
all those kinds of things so I had this

1107
00:51:59,620 --> 00:51:53,580
connection with with Hynek I moved to

1108
00:52:03,770 --> 00:51:59,630
Chicago in would have been the summer of

1109
00:52:06,589 --> 00:52:03,780
1976 oh just a few months later and so I

1110
00:52:09,410 --> 00:52:06,599
began to run into Allen you know

1111
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:09,420
personally and then one day he asked me

1112
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:12,210
if I would edit International UFO

1113
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:14,609
reporter which was a Center for UFO

1114
00:52:22,430 --> 00:52:18,930
studies monthly publication and I said

1115
00:52:25,310 --> 00:52:22,440
sure and I had some ideas about what I

1116
00:52:27,859 --> 00:52:25,320
want to do and I thought it was I wanted

1117
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:27,869
to make it more lively not in the sense

1118
00:52:33,740 --> 00:52:30,960
of less intellectually disciplined

1119
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:33,750
but really a sort of patterned after

1120
00:52:39,950 --> 00:52:36,720
like a UFO version of the New Republic

1121
00:52:44,060 --> 00:52:39,960
or the Atlantic magazine like that and

1122
00:52:49,370 --> 00:52:44,070
so in mind of course my intership we

1123
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:49,380
change the the format ran a lot of good

1124
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:52,710
investigated pieces also ran you know

1125
00:52:57,350 --> 00:52:55,470
opinion pieces some of which you know

1126
00:53:00,410 --> 00:52:57,360
were controversial but they were lively

1127
00:53:02,780 --> 00:53:00,420
we wanted people to talk about ideas and

1128
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:02,790
then debate these things and sometimes

1129
00:53:07,130 --> 00:53:04,710
we would have debates in the magazine I

1130
00:53:09,830 --> 00:53:07,140
notice in marks book there's a page

1131
00:53:12,620 --> 00:53:09,840
devoted to this it never really

1132
00:53:16,490 --> 00:53:12,630
explained what was going on here but the

1133
00:53:18,290 --> 00:53:16,500
book marks book says that that all Ellen

1134
00:53:20,450 --> 00:53:18,300
was really unhappy about what was going

1135
00:53:24,140 --> 00:53:20,460
on at Koufos there was young hotheads

1136
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:24,150
running things well and in Michael Sarge

1137
00:53:29,150 --> 00:53:26,610
is quoted as clucking about how he was

1138
00:53:30,860 --> 00:53:29,160
appalled but Michael never said anything

1139
00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:30,870
to me so I don't really believe he was

1140
00:53:38,810 --> 00:53:34,920
appalled but it I you are it what was

1141
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:38,820
going on with generational change and I

1142
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:40,770
think a lot of things to go on the way

1143
00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:42,930
they were but we ended up having a very

1144
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:45,630
good magazine in fact I would say that I

1145
00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:47,850
you are in the years that I was

1146
00:53:53,540 --> 00:53:50,520
associated I was first I was the only

1147
00:53:55,790 --> 00:53:53,550
editor that I became editor with Jorge

1148
00:53:59,840 --> 00:53:55,800
Yebra hartmark rodiger that it was the

1149
00:54:02,570 --> 00:53:59,850
best magazine in ufology and I'm very

1150
00:54:04,010 --> 00:54:02,580
proud of those of the years that we had

1151
00:54:06,020 --> 00:54:04,020
with that magazine which of course

1152
00:54:08,660 --> 00:54:06,030
eventually went the way of all print

1153
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:08,670
magazines but it was good it was an

1154
00:54:13,730 --> 00:54:10,530
intelligent magazine it was critical

1155
00:54:15,860 --> 00:54:13,740
minded we ran good material we edited it

1156
00:54:17,210 --> 00:54:15,870
the editing was very good the commas and

1157
00:54:18,860 --> 00:54:17,220
the periods are all in the right place

1158
00:54:20,750 --> 00:54:18,870
and the word just felt right and and

1159
00:54:23,540 --> 00:54:20,760
grammar was okay you you were always

1160
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:23,550
excellent at that Jerry yet was your

1161
00:54:30,380 --> 00:54:27,210
your your your your your cup of tea that

1162
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:30,390
was that yeah yeah and you know you can

1163
00:54:36,140 --> 00:54:32,910
still get the entire library of I you

1164
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:36,150
are on CD from Koufos for I think it's a

1165
00:54:41,450 --> 00:54:39,510
very reasonable 20 dollars I have the

1166
00:54:42,020 --> 00:54:41,460
collection and it's lots and lots of

1167
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:42,030
good reading

1168
00:54:47,900 --> 00:54:44,400
I agree it's a fantastic

1169
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:47,910
Journal thank you thank you wait you

1170
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:50,690
know I wanted to get into some of the

1171
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:53,730
the the cases that you wrote about in

1172
00:55:01,240 --> 00:54:58,290
the in the book mark we've already

1173
00:55:07,850 --> 00:55:01,250
talked about the Lubbock lights and the

1174
00:55:09,980 --> 00:55:07,860
Texas a case but did the Sikora make a

1175
00:55:12,500 --> 00:55:09,990
bigger impression do you think on dr.

1176
00:55:14,030 --> 00:55:12,510
Hynek you know the sighting a subsequent

1177
00:55:17,330 --> 00:55:14,040
sighting and landing and perhaps

1178
00:55:20,290 --> 00:55:17,340
humanoid report that came out of it from

1179
00:55:23,330 --> 00:55:20,300
the police officer Lonnie some more oh

1180
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:23,340
yeah that case had a profound influence

1181
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:25,650
on Hynek I mean it parts of it are

1182
00:55:30,220 --> 00:55:26,370
tragic but

1183
00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:30,230
Hynek was sent to Socorro pretty quickly

1184
00:55:36,980 --> 00:55:33,720
Bluebook didn't always didn't always

1185
00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:36,990
react very quickly to cases like this

1186
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:38,430
but in this particular case they

1187
00:55:43,250 --> 00:55:41,370
actually got Hynek on a plane down to

1188
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:43,260
Albuquerque within a matter of you know

1189
00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:45,690
less than a day after after the event

1190
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:48,510
took place nonetheless by the time Hynek

1191
00:55:55,670 --> 00:55:53,010
actually got to the where it where ISM

1192
00:55:58,220 --> 00:55:55,680
Officer Zamora said the landing site of

1193
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:58,230
this craft was the physical evidence had

1194
00:56:02,630 --> 00:56:00,000
all been pretty much destroyed because

1195
00:56:06,020 --> 00:56:02,640
it had been gone over by so many law

1196
00:56:08,950 --> 00:56:06,030
enforcement officers just backtrack a

1197
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:08,960
little a policeman named Lonnie Zamora

1198
00:56:15,170 --> 00:56:11,520
was chasing a speeder through the town

1199
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:15,180
of Socorro New Mexico here's here's a

1200
00:56:20,930 --> 00:56:17,250
blast and sees a flash of flame from the

1201
00:56:22,550 --> 00:56:20,940
hills veers off into the hills discovers

1202
00:56:24,500 --> 00:56:22,560
what he first thinks might be an

1203
00:56:27,620 --> 00:56:24,510
overturned car but it turns out to be a

1204
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:27,630
large egg-shaped white aluminum object

1205
00:56:33,620 --> 00:56:30,510
standing on landing struts and and two

1206
00:56:35,270 --> 00:56:33,630
figures two humanoid figures outside by

1207
00:56:36,890 --> 00:56:35,280
the times the more approaches this thing

1208
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:36,900
the figures have disappeared apparently

1209
00:56:43,790 --> 00:56:39,810
gone inside and it blasts off and zooms

1210
00:56:47,450 --> 00:56:43,800
away well it left behind a scorched a

1211
00:56:51,650 --> 00:56:47,460
scorched bush and it left behind landing

1212
00:56:53,090 --> 00:56:51,660
pad imprints and you know these Close

1213
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:53,100
Encounters of the second well this is

1214
00:56:58,250 --> 00:56:54,330
closing however the third kind because

1215
00:57:01,150 --> 00:56:58,260
involved humanoids but cases that in

1216
00:57:03,770 --> 00:57:01,160
of physical traces like this were

1217
00:57:05,330 --> 00:57:03,780
absolutely hynek's favorite because he

1218
00:57:08,540 --> 00:57:05,340
felt that they had the most scientific

1219
00:57:11,090 --> 00:57:08,550
value so here we've got a case with an

1220
00:57:13,630 --> 00:57:11,100
extremely credible witness Lonnie Zamora

1221
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:13,640
was about the most unimaginative guy

1222
00:57:16,730 --> 00:57:15,570
according to Hynek that you could

1223
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:16,740
possibly imagine

1224
00:57:24,170 --> 00:57:20,130
not a guy prone to fantastic imaginings

1225
00:57:25,970 --> 00:57:24,180
at all and as I said there's there's

1226
00:57:27,859 --> 00:57:25,980
physical evidence and there were other

1227
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:27,869
people in town who had seen strange

1228
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:30,570
things in this guy that very same day so

1229
00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:34,410
Hynek found it very very convincing the

1230
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:37,710
the popular theory was that the craft

1231
00:57:44,060 --> 00:57:42,090
had been a test sort of a testing

1232
00:57:45,710 --> 00:57:44,070
version of the lunar excursion module

1233
00:57:48,380 --> 00:57:45,720
that the Apollo astronauts were going to

1234
00:57:49,970 --> 00:57:48,390
take to the moon of course we know that

1235
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:49,980
the craft that the Apollo astronauts

1236
00:57:55,750 --> 00:57:52,050
took to the moon was not egg-shaped at

1237
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:55,760
all so that theory is a little flimsy

1238
00:57:59,420 --> 00:57:57,810
but you know it made sense at the time

1239
00:58:01,099 --> 00:57:59,430
because Holloman Air Force Base and

1240
00:58:02,900 --> 00:58:01,109
White Sands proving grounds were you

1241
00:58:05,359 --> 00:58:02,910
know just up the road from Saqqara New

1242
00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:05,369
Mexico but yeah that was a big big case

1243
00:58:09,890 --> 00:58:07,950
rynek he found it very now of course she

1244
00:58:12,830 --> 00:58:09,900
had this absolutely preposterous theory

1245
00:58:14,810 --> 00:58:12,840
that has been that put forward with

1246
00:58:16,930 --> 00:58:14,820
absolutely no evidence at all that it

1247
00:58:20,090 --> 00:58:16,940
was a prank

1248
00:58:23,810 --> 00:58:20,100
organized by college students oh right

1249
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:23,820
yeah that of all the theories that I you

1250
00:58:28,550 --> 00:58:26,400
know I've had explanations for UFO cases

1251
00:58:31,670 --> 00:58:28,560
that has to be just absolutely the most

1252
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:31,680
preposterous in idiotic and I would say

1253
00:58:36,260 --> 00:58:33,119
it to the face of the person who has

1254
00:58:39,020 --> 00:58:36,270
pushed that because it's tried in it's

1255
00:58:40,849 --> 00:58:39,030
ridiculous and it's just a that same

1256
00:58:42,470 --> 00:58:40,859
person believes in Roswell but they

1257
00:58:44,990 --> 00:58:42,480
can't believe in LA needs are more just

1258
00:58:46,430 --> 00:58:45,000
doesn't make any sense I don't know well

1259
00:58:48,349 --> 00:58:46,440
on the face of it that's just such a

1260
00:58:50,660 --> 00:58:48,359
dumb idea because if someone was to hoax

1261
00:58:52,550 --> 00:58:50,670
that they would have to know the precise

1262
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:52,560
moment that Lonnie Zamora was driving

1263
00:58:56,180 --> 00:58:54,210
his patrol car down the highway and

1264
00:58:58,430 --> 00:58:56,190
there's no way anybody could know that

1265
00:59:00,349 --> 00:58:58,440
so there's there's no way you could

1266
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:00,359
actually plan to have a witness to your

1267
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:03,210
hoax it's ridiculous now how about this

1268
00:59:08,890 --> 00:59:06,090
symbol that was on the craft what was it

1269
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:08,900
did not the Air Force tell them at the

1270
00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:12,210
off police officer not to

1271
00:59:16,550 --> 00:59:14,910
what he saw on the side of the craft yes

1272
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:16,560
and there were and there were allegedly

1273
00:59:20,510 --> 00:59:18,690
two different descriptions of the symbol

1274
00:59:23,210 --> 00:59:20,520
that's what I find curious and I and I

1275
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:23,220
know conversations still come up on some

1276
00:59:28,010 --> 00:59:25,470
of the Facebook UFO groups about the

1277
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:28,020
symbol on the egg and it's fascinating I

1278
00:59:32,810 --> 00:59:29,910
don't really know what the reality is

1279
00:59:35,150 --> 00:59:32,820
here but yeah it was actually there was

1280
00:59:37,460 --> 00:59:35,160
a discussion of that and Kevin Randall's

1281
00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:37,470
blog some down the last couple months I

1282
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:40,710
think Kevin pretty conclusively made the

1283
00:59:46,730 --> 00:59:43,410
case that the familiar symbol that we

1284
00:59:48,410 --> 00:59:46,740
see was actually what is immoral

1285
00:59:50,660 --> 00:59:48,420
described and he goes into the

1286
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:50,670
background of the alternative image I

1287
00:59:57,770 --> 00:59:55,410
don't well I I may I may be wrong but in

1288
01:00:01,070 --> 00:59:57,780
one of our early issues a jury of the

1289
01:00:04,460 --> 01:00:01,080
interplanetary News Service report there

1290
01:00:07,339 --> 01:00:04,470
was a a postcard and I can't remember

1291
01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:07,349
whether it was from dr. Hynek or from

1292
01:00:12,770 --> 01:00:10,380
Milani Zamora and the postcard contained

1293
01:00:14,570 --> 01:00:12,780
the symbol I mean that was it that we

1294
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:14,580
asked them what the you know the symbol

1295
01:00:18,890 --> 01:00:16,410
on the UFO look like and this is what

1296
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:18,900
whatever they sent back on the postcard

1297
01:00:23,660 --> 01:00:22,290
but we printed it I mean it's it I don't

1298
01:00:26,089 --> 01:00:23,670
know yeah it's it's the more

1299
01:00:28,070 --> 01:00:26,099
recognizable one of the but we don't

1300
01:00:33,050 --> 01:00:28,080
know what though we don't know what the

1301
01:00:35,540 --> 01:00:33,060
semi me yeah Kevin Randle will soon be

1302
01:00:39,260 --> 01:00:35,550
publishing a book devoted entirely to

1303
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:39,270
the Socorro case so we'll have a go to

1304
01:00:45,170 --> 01:00:41,910
reference on any controversies about

1305
01:00:47,180 --> 01:00:45,180
this incident that will be a fun book I

1306
01:00:48,829 --> 01:00:47,190
just want to mention when I when I was

1307
01:00:51,620 --> 01:00:48,839
writing this part of the book I had the

1308
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:51,630
I had the good fortune to interview a

1309
01:00:57,650 --> 01:00:54,690
gentleman named William T powers who had

1310
01:01:00,070 --> 01:00:57,660
been on Hynek staff at the dear Burton

1311
01:01:03,530 --> 01:01:00,080
observatory at Northwestern University

1312
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:03,540
and the Hynek would sometimes send bill

1313
01:01:08,930 --> 01:01:06,720
powers out to investigate cases when he

1314
01:01:12,020 --> 01:01:08,940
wasn't able to go or sometimes they went

1315
01:01:14,060 --> 01:01:12,030
together and powers was actually at

1316
01:01:17,359 --> 01:01:14,070
power spent some time in Socorro and he

1317
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:17,369
met with Lonnie Zamora and he viewed the

1318
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:19,890
he view of the landing site and he was a

1319
01:01:25,099 --> 01:01:22,290
skeptical guy he was sort of a check

1320
01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:25,109
sometimes to hynix to hynek's thinking

1321
01:01:29,329 --> 01:01:25,710
in certain

1322
01:01:31,910 --> 01:01:29,339
ways and he he went into the Sakura

1323
01:01:33,770 --> 01:01:31,920
caves feeling very very skeptical but

1324
01:01:37,490 --> 01:01:33,780
then this is an interesting part zomora

1325
01:01:41,329 --> 01:01:37,500
showed him a sketch that showed exactly

1326
01:01:46,370 --> 01:01:41,339
where the landing the landing pad

1327
01:01:48,500 --> 01:01:46,380
imprints were in the dirt and powers

1328
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:48,510
took one look at it and he was he was

1329
01:01:53,270 --> 01:01:51,450
kind of a mechanical genius powers takes

1330
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:53,280
one look at this sketch that Lonnie has

1331
01:01:58,250 --> 01:01:55,530
given him showing the placement of the

1332
01:02:01,970 --> 01:01:58,260
landing gear imprints and powers thinks

1333
01:02:03,890 --> 01:02:01,980
oh my gosh that is exactly where the

1334
01:02:05,540 --> 01:02:03,900
landing pads would have to be and

1335
01:02:08,060 --> 01:02:05,550
exactly where the Scorch Bush would have

1336
01:02:11,450 --> 01:02:08,070
to be for this thing to be able to blast

1337
01:02:12,980 --> 01:02:11,460
off so powers powers went into that case

1338
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:12,990
very skeptical and came away very

1339
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:15,359
convinced that Lonnie Zamora had seen an

1340
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:18,480
actual craft it's a really fun case and

1341
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:20,130
I can't wait to read Kevin Randall's

1342
01:02:26,900 --> 01:02:21,510
book I think that'll be a really fun

1343
01:02:30,260 --> 01:02:26,910
read and how about the pets ball am i

1344
01:02:34,609 --> 01:02:30,270
pronouncing that correctly be etz I'm

1345
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:34,619
not familiar with that the giant I think

1346
01:02:39,950 --> 01:02:36,810
a Heinicke was what inviting Enquirer

1347
01:02:42,530 --> 01:02:39,960
this was this giant size ball made out

1348
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:42,540
as a metal or aluminum or something that

1349
01:02:48,140 --> 01:02:45,690
had landed in the backyard or some

1350
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:48,150
family I think in Florida is you

1351
01:02:54,589 --> 01:02:51,359
remember the details of that Jerry no

1352
01:02:56,690 --> 01:02:54,599
it's not really a bills at all yeah yeah

1353
01:02:59,300 --> 01:02:56,700
anyway then they claimed it was like you

1354
01:03:01,700 --> 01:02:59,310
no wonder it was manufactured somewhere

1355
01:03:04,220 --> 01:03:01,710
else and all but any anyway they I guess

1356
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:04,230
the Inquirer wanted them Hynek to say

1357
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:06,690
you know there was a interplanetary

1358
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:09,450
relic and he said he even slept with it

1359
01:03:15,530 --> 01:03:13,130
and he didn't find anything to add more

1360
01:03:18,020 --> 01:03:15,540
about it now that was scientific

1361
01:03:21,859 --> 01:03:18,030
communication well there is there you go

1362
01:03:25,250 --> 01:03:21,869
for for all royal purposes can't get

1363
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:25,260
away without mentioning swamp gas let's

1364
01:03:32,030 --> 01:03:29,930
go into Dexter Dexter Michigan Ann Arbor

1365
01:03:37,430 --> 01:03:32,040
boy where to start

1366
01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:37,440
I I kind of started out with that case

1367
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:39,510
when it's the middle of the store

1368
01:03:42,530 --> 01:03:41,130
but it was one of the first chapters I

1369
01:03:45,170 --> 01:03:42,540
wrote and in fact it turned into two

1370
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:45,180
chapters because it's such a lengthy and

1371
01:03:50,810 --> 01:03:48,210
complicated story and I came away from

1372
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:50,820
it and I I know a lot of people disagree

1373
01:03:54,830 --> 01:03:52,650
with me on this a lot of interviewers

1374
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:54,840
are surprised when I say this I came

1375
01:04:00,500 --> 01:03:57,770
away from that researching that case

1376
01:04:02,420 --> 01:04:00,510
absolutely convinced that dr. Hynek said

1377
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:02,430
exactly the right thing when he said

1378
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:04,170
swamp gas in that in that press

1379
01:04:10,580 --> 01:04:08,490
conference he was a he was a pure

1380
01:04:12,290 --> 01:04:10,590
scientist he went exactly what the facts

1381
01:04:14,300 --> 01:04:12,300
led him and he did not go one inch

1382
01:04:16,310 --> 01:04:14,310
further than where the facts led him and

1383
01:04:20,630 --> 01:04:16,320
the facts in the Dexter Hills Dale's

1384
01:04:22,010 --> 01:04:20,640
case very strongly suggested and and he

1385
01:04:23,660 --> 01:04:22,020
said this at the press conference he

1386
01:04:28,490 --> 01:04:23,670
said I could not prove it in a court of

1387
01:04:30,290 --> 01:04:28,500
law but the evidence present strongly

1388
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:30,300
suggests that these people may have seen

1389
01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:32,130
swamp gas

1390
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:34,110
and I think he said absolutely the right

1391
01:04:39,230 --> 01:04:36,210
thing the irony of it is that that's

1392
01:04:40,850 --> 01:04:39,240
exactly what his blue book project chief

1393
01:04:44,420 --> 01:04:40,860
interconnector quintanilla was

1394
01:04:46,690 --> 01:04:44,430
pressuring him to say because you know

1395
01:04:48,860 --> 01:04:46,700
this was a huge huge national story

1396
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:48,870
everybody was convinced that this was

1397
01:04:53,390 --> 01:04:51,210
the big one that these were real flying

1398
01:04:55,790 --> 01:04:53,400
saucers that people real spacecraft that

1399
01:04:58,010 --> 01:04:55,800
people had seen simply because so many

1400
01:05:00,380 --> 01:04:58,020
witnesses said they had seen the same

1401
01:05:02,660 --> 01:05:00,390
thing well let me let me let me ask you

1402
01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:02,670
this now there were reports that the

1403
01:05:07,370 --> 01:05:04,710
these things were of course a ground

1404
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:07,380
level but they also shot up above the

1405
01:05:12,620 --> 01:05:10,490
trees I mean the the college girls their

1406
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:12,630
report is that they saw from their

1407
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:16,290
dormitory window and that it did seem to

1408
01:05:20,540 --> 01:05:19,440
be under intelligent control also if it

1409
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:20,550
was swamp cast

1410
01:05:24,950 --> 01:05:22,650
how come swamp a you would think that

1411
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:24,960
the swamp gas would be seen I'm pretty

1412
01:05:28,910 --> 01:05:26,970
much a regular basis in the same area

1413
01:05:30,860 --> 01:05:28,920
swamp gas just doesn't appear and then

1414
01:05:34,730 --> 01:05:30,870
disappeared doesn't show up again it's

1415
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:34,740
not like a UFO sighting well I think I

1416
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:37,170
think that's a fair point but what it

1417
01:05:42,290 --> 01:05:40,050
comes down to in hynek's assessment of

1418
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,300
the case is what was the evidence that

1419
01:05:48,010 --> 01:05:44,400
Hynek was working with now in this case

1420
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:48,020
he made a very deliberate choice to

1421
01:05:53,150 --> 01:05:50,970
discount a lot of the testimony allow

1422
01:05:55,279 --> 01:05:53,160
the witness testimony and a lot of the

1423
01:05:57,490 --> 01:05:55,289
descriptions of the object simply

1424
01:06:01,130 --> 01:05:57,500
because there was so little agreement

1425
01:06:02,569 --> 01:06:01,140
the witnesses generally agreed on on you

1426
01:06:04,220 --> 01:06:02,579
know the fact that they saw colored

1427
01:06:06,859 --> 01:06:04,230
lights and they agreed that they were

1428
01:06:08,660 --> 01:06:06,869
yellow and red and green lights and that

1429
01:06:10,839 --> 01:06:08,670
they floated around and they disappeared

1430
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:10,849
and reappeared but there was never any

1431
01:06:15,319 --> 01:06:13,410
consistent testimony as to how these

1432
01:06:19,420 --> 01:06:15,329
things appeared or how they disappeared

1433
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:19,430
or how they behaved and Hynek okay

1434
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:21,450
here's a really strong part of this

1435
01:06:27,859 --> 01:06:25,530
story so 8787 college students in the

1436
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:27,869
dormitory at Hillsdale College watched

1437
01:06:32,569 --> 01:06:30,450
these lights in the Arboretum campus

1438
01:06:34,309 --> 01:06:32,579
Arboretum from their dorm windows when

1439
01:06:36,710 --> 01:06:34,319
Heine came to investigate a couple days

1440
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:36,720
later he was not allowed to interview

1441
01:06:41,390 --> 01:06:38,910
all 87 witnesses he was only given

1442
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:41,400
access to two of the young women and the

1443
01:06:46,339 --> 01:06:44,400
dorm house mother so you know I by who I

1444
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:46,349
mean who prevented him from speaking to

1445
01:06:50,180 --> 01:06:48,450
the witnesses the house mother the dorm

1446
01:06:51,859 --> 01:06:50,190
house mother she was very protective she

1447
01:06:54,529 --> 01:06:51,869
only allowed Hynek to talk to two of the

1448
01:06:56,180 --> 01:06:54,539
young women so you know and this was

1449
01:06:57,740 --> 01:06:56,190
something jock valet got very frustrated

1450
01:06:59,750 --> 01:06:57,750
with he wrote about it in his journal is

1451
01:07:01,549 --> 01:06:59,760
he like he's like Ellen you had a

1452
01:07:03,349 --> 01:07:01,559
hundred witnesses why didn't you

1453
01:07:05,150 --> 01:07:03,359
interview you know you could have made

1454
01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:05,160
such a strong case and INEC is kind of

1455
01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:07,200
like but no I didn't have that many

1456
01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:09,510
witnesses I only headed to and then the

1457
01:07:13,849 --> 01:07:11,609
the witnesses from the previous evening

1458
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:13,859
at the Frank Frank mannor and his family

1459
01:07:17,089 --> 01:07:14,690
at their farm

1460
01:07:18,589 --> 01:07:17,099
Hynek barely had a chance to talk to

1461
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:18,599
either of them because it was such a

1462
01:07:23,539 --> 01:07:21,839
media circus he could barely get a

1463
01:07:25,039 --> 01:07:23,549
chance to interview these two men he

1464
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:25,049
spent more time talking with the police

1465
01:07:29,269 --> 01:07:27,210
than with the two than with the father

1466
01:07:31,970 --> 01:07:29,279
and son who had actually seen the UFO

1467
01:07:33,950 --> 01:07:31,980
originally on their farm so Hynek made a

1468
01:07:35,900 --> 01:07:33,960
very deliberate choice also there were

1469
01:07:38,170 --> 01:07:35,910
all sorts of police officers reporting

1470
01:07:41,029 --> 01:07:38,180
sightings in the previous weeks

1471
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:41,039
Hynek didn't Hynek never was convinced

1472
01:07:46,670 --> 01:07:44,490
that their stories really added up he

1473
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:46,680
ended up he ended up riding in a squad

1474
01:07:49,910 --> 01:07:48,210
car one night at midnight when all the

1475
01:07:52,460 --> 01:07:49,920
local policemen got excited because they

1476
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:52,470
were they were tailing a UFO and they

1477
01:07:56,029 --> 01:07:54,510
all converge on where they think the UFO

1478
01:07:57,529 --> 01:07:56,039
is and they all pile out of their cars

1479
01:07:59,900 --> 01:07:57,539
and they're shouting there it is there

1480
01:08:01,430 --> 01:07:59,910
it is pointing to this bright light up

1481
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:01,440
in the sky and Hynek just shakes his

1482
01:08:06,049 --> 01:08:03,210
head and he's like no that's the star

1483
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:06,059
Arcturus that's not a UFO so hynek's

1484
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:06,720
confidence

1485
01:08:13,250 --> 01:08:09,210
the policeman in the area was totally

1486
01:08:16,010 --> 01:08:13,260
shot so yeah Hynek deliberately only

1487
01:08:18,590 --> 01:08:16,020
considered a very small slice of the

1488
01:08:21,050 --> 01:08:18,600
evidence and again he only went where

1489
01:08:22,820 --> 01:08:21,060
the facts took him so so as I said I

1490
01:08:24,740 --> 01:08:22,830
think he was perfectly justified in

1491
01:08:27,910 --> 01:08:24,750
reaching the verdict that he did well

1492
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:27,920
how comes that particular flap caught on

1493
01:08:32,900 --> 01:08:30,960
well I you have to look at it in context

1494
01:08:37,220 --> 01:08:32,910
this came about just a couple of months

1495
01:08:39,340 --> 01:08:37,230
after John fuller started writing about

1496
01:08:42,559 --> 01:08:39,350
the incident at Exeter John Foy was a

1497
01:08:46,430 --> 01:08:42,569
national columnist for Saturday Review I

1498
01:08:48,110 --> 01:08:46,440
think and he wrote a column in one of

1499
01:08:50,059 --> 01:08:48,120
the issues of his magazine about this

1500
01:08:52,579 --> 01:08:50,069
UFO sighting in Exeter New Hampshire

1501
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:52,589
involving a hitchhiking college student

1502
01:08:57,110 --> 01:08:54,480
and a couple of policemen who saw a

1503
01:09:00,170 --> 01:08:57,120
strange giant metallic craft in the sky

1504
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:00,180
coming over two trees yeah and it read

1505
01:09:03,890 --> 01:09:02,370
yeah and fuller had been a skeptic but

1506
01:09:06,860 --> 01:09:03,900
he traveled to New Hampshire and he

1507
01:09:10,789 --> 01:09:06,870
interviewed the witnesses and he was he

1508
01:09:13,220 --> 01:09:10,799
was convinced by their sincerity and and

1509
01:09:14,890 --> 01:09:13,230
he changed his tune so he started

1510
01:09:18,050 --> 01:09:14,900
writing about UFOs in his column

1511
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:18,060
positively about UFOs and then and then

1512
01:09:22,870 --> 01:09:19,890
that quickly turned into him writing a

1513
01:09:25,789 --> 01:09:22,880
book called incident incident at Exeter

1514
01:09:27,470 --> 01:09:25,799
the book was an immensely popular when

1515
01:09:29,390 --> 01:09:27,480
they published excerpts from the book in

1516
01:09:32,990 --> 01:09:29,400
magazines leading up to its publication

1517
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:33,000
it just got incredible reads now what

1518
01:09:36,740 --> 01:09:35,250
was it wasn't it Saturday Evening Post

1519
01:09:38,749 --> 01:09:36,750
was that the name of the magazine I

1520
01:09:41,090 --> 01:09:38,759
think yeah it was Saturday Review saturd

1521
01:09:44,900 --> 01:09:41,100
Saturday route so basically the American

1522
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:44,910
public was primed in the in the spring

1523
01:09:49,670 --> 01:09:46,560
of 1955

1524
01:09:53,059 --> 01:09:49,680
I'm sorry 1965 the American public was

1525
01:09:54,979 --> 01:09:53,069
fully primed for a huge UFO case because

1526
01:09:57,470 --> 01:09:54,989
John fuller had gotten everybody so

1527
01:10:00,050 --> 01:09:57,480
pumped up about the reality of UFOs and

1528
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:00,060
all of a sudden this huge case breaks in

1529
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:01,770
Michigan where there are over a hundred

1530
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:04,290
witnesses and the sightings take place

1531
01:10:09,440 --> 01:10:06,810
over many many nights and it's just had

1532
01:10:09,890 --> 01:10:09,450
it just had the big one written all over

1533
01:10:12,229 --> 01:10:09,900
it

1534
01:10:15,410 --> 01:10:12,239
so people were people were just super

1535
01:10:19,220 --> 01:10:15,420
excited and primed for a really big big

1536
01:10:22,250 --> 01:10:20,810
a great deal of respect for your opinion

1537
01:10:24,979 --> 01:10:22,260
but I strayed I'm going to have to

1538
01:10:28,610 --> 01:10:24,989
descend here okay I don't I think you're

1539
01:10:31,490 --> 01:10:28,620
really exaggerating the effect that John

1540
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:31,500
fuller had on public opinion but it

1541
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:34,489
happened from from what I am from my

1542
01:10:39,770 --> 01:10:37,370
understanding was there had been a

1543
01:10:42,470 --> 01:10:39,780
steady accumulation of pretty

1544
01:10:45,500 --> 01:10:42,480
interesting UFO sightings starting in

1545
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:45,510
the spring of 1964 with including the

1546
01:10:50,450 --> 01:10:47,760
Samara report we've been talking about

1547
01:10:56,780 --> 01:10:50,460
and this would continue there was a huge

1548
01:10:59,780 --> 01:10:56,790
UFO wave on August 2nd 1965 last into a

1549
01:11:01,760 --> 01:10:59,790
fall and there were just a lot of UFO

1550
01:11:04,010 --> 01:11:01,770
sightings going around and I think that

1551
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:04,020
this situation reached critical mass

1552
01:11:09,590 --> 01:11:07,440
well we are coming up on our last break

1553
01:11:11,810 --> 01:11:09,600
there and when we come back I'm going to

1554
01:11:15,020 --> 01:11:11,820
tell of an incident that dr. Hynek tell

1555
01:11:16,070 --> 01:11:15,030
me about evolving the men in black so

1556
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:16,080
there you go

1557
01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:30,100
now back to exploring the bazaar with

1558
01:11:34,780 --> 01:11:31,910
two of the most intact refined

1559
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:34,790
researchers in the Paranoid your hosts

1560
01:11:44,410 --> 01:11:40,970
Timothy regulate Anton Swartz well you

1561
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:44,420
know Tim what a fascinating program this

1562
01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:48,050
has been especially work especially for

1563
01:11:57,370 --> 01:11:55,040
us old-timers now back in in 1976 I

1564
01:11:59,080 --> 01:11:57,380
think I made it did I mention on the air

1565
01:12:01,930 --> 01:11:59,090
here that I was one of the editors of

1566
01:12:06,390 --> 01:12:01,940
the Close Encounters poster magazine yes

1567
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:06,400
my dream I yes my job was to take the

1568
01:12:11,980 --> 01:12:09,770
cases from the the movie Close

1569
01:12:15,790 --> 01:12:11,990
Encounters of the Third Kind and make a

1570
01:12:17,710 --> 01:12:15,800
parallel parallel them to actual

1571
01:12:23,380 --> 01:12:17,720
legitimate the UFO cases that had taken

1572
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:23,390
place anyway you know I I spent some

1573
01:12:28,620 --> 01:12:25,130
time in that a horrendous amount of time

1574
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:28,630
but I did spend some time with dr. Hynek

1575
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:32,690
and we I did an article that runs many

1576
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:36,890
many pages in the UFO report this would

1577
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:40,250
have been back in August of 1976 and

1578
01:12:45,220 --> 01:12:43,040
both Jerry and I wrote four sagas UFO

1579
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:45,230
report it was probably the most

1580
01:12:50,710 --> 01:12:48,770
respectable the UFO publications sold on

1581
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:50,720
the newsstand you know popular type of

1582
01:12:55,510 --> 01:12:53,930
magazine the story so Jerry would you

1583
01:12:57,790 --> 01:12:55,520
say we're pretty well researched I mean

1584
01:13:01,210 --> 01:12:57,800
not good old Marty singer there I mean

1585
01:13:03,730 --> 01:13:01,220
if he didn't like you know the story

1586
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:03,740
he'd make you rewrite it which was yeah

1587
01:13:08,830 --> 01:13:07,280
marty was marty was a guest even he was

1588
01:13:10,150 --> 01:13:08,840
decent until the yellow guy took over

1589
01:13:13,930 --> 01:13:10,160
there Dave Eckhart or whatever his name

1590
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:13,940
was anyway uh one of the things that the

1591
01:13:19,690 --> 01:13:15,770
dr. Hynek said to me and I'm quoting

1592
01:13:22,300 --> 01:13:19,700
here from the interview you know because

1593
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:22,310
we think of dr. Hynek as a interested in

1594
01:13:29,290 --> 01:13:26,000
the et hypothesis but it towards his the

1595
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:29,300
you know the the 1970s and after Close

1596
01:13:35,380 --> 01:13:31,610
Encounters came out I mean he seems to

1597
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:35,390
have expanded his horizons a bit anyway

1598
01:13:38,620 --> 01:13:37,970
he said I would have to say that the

1599
01:13:41,650 --> 01:13:38,630
Exeter

1600
01:13:45,010 --> 01:13:41,660
droll theory is a naive one it's the

1601
01:13:46,900 --> 01:13:45,020
simplest of all hypothesis but not a

1602
01:13:49,690 --> 01:13:46,910
very likely explanation for the

1603
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:49,700
phenomena we have seen manifesting

1604
01:13:54,490 --> 01:13:52,610
itself for centuries in Canada not too

1605
01:13:57,130 --> 01:13:54,500
long ago I spoke before a group of

1606
01:13:59,440 --> 01:13:57,140
liberal thinking scientists who had

1607
01:14:01,660 --> 01:13:59,450
gathered for a serious discussion on the

1608
01:14:04,210 --> 01:14:01,670
latest discoveries in the field of

1609
01:14:06,670 --> 01:14:04,220
parapsychology the conference was

1610
01:14:09,370 --> 01:14:06,680
sponsored by the new horizon Research

1611
01:14:13,060 --> 01:14:09,380
Foundation which is a bleep resided over

1612
01:14:16,210 --> 01:14:13,070
by dr. George Owen a former fellow of

1613
01:14:18,970 --> 01:14:16,220
Trinity College Cambridge England I told

1614
01:14:21,310 --> 01:14:18,980
these astute men of learning included a

1615
01:14:24,370 --> 01:14:21,320
respected Nobel Prize winner in physics

1616
01:14:25,900 --> 01:14:24,380
that we should take into consideration

1617
01:14:31,230 --> 01:14:25,910
the various factors would strongly

1618
01:14:34,390 --> 01:14:31,240
suggest a linkage or at least a

1619
01:14:37,810 --> 01:14:34,400
paralyzation with occurrences of a

1620
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:37,820
paranormal nature anyway this is the

1621
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:40,010
statement that he he may did to me and

1622
01:14:45,330 --> 01:14:43,250
he was also a team could I comment on

1623
01:14:48,730 --> 01:14:45,340
that place well certainly you can um

1624
01:14:54,490 --> 01:14:48,740
this goes back to arguments that one I

1625
01:15:00,280 --> 01:14:54,500
used to have and that kind of remark

1626
01:15:02,440 --> 01:15:00,290
reflects Alan's fascination with occult

1627
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:02,450
writers like well Steiner which marked

1628
01:15:12,330 --> 01:15:06,650
by the way goes into yes indeed and I

1629
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:16,300
these sorts of extraordinary explanatory

1630
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:19,610
schemes for UFO reports really work best

1631
01:15:27,010 --> 01:15:22,850
on the high strangeness cases on the

1632
01:15:29,740 --> 01:15:27,020
ones that are extremely unusual and and

1633
01:15:33,190 --> 01:15:29,750
vividly experienced but really almost

1634
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:33,200
impossible to prove there it we do not

1635
01:15:40,510 --> 01:15:36,050
know with certainty that these are

1636
01:15:43,420 --> 01:15:40,520
related to like c2 s radar visuals the

1637
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:43,430
hard evidence cases if you're looking

1638
01:15:49,150 --> 01:15:45,010
for evidence of some kind of

1639
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:49,160
extraordinary unknown behind beautiful

1640
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:50,290
manifestation

1641
01:15:55,530 --> 01:15:52,810
go to the hi strangers gates if you're

1642
01:15:58,050 --> 01:15:55,540
looking for evidence of extraterrestrial

1643
01:16:00,840 --> 01:15:58,060
visitation and an advanced technology

1644
01:16:02,970 --> 01:16:00,850
from somewhere else then tell a sparrow

1645
01:16:05,670 --> 01:16:02,980
well the only the only thing I can say

1646
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:05,680
Jerry is what exact evidence do we have

1647
01:16:13,229 --> 01:16:09,489
of extraterrestrial visitors I mean they

1648
01:16:16,950 --> 01:16:13,239
don't they don't act they don't act you

1649
01:16:18,780 --> 01:16:16,960
know anything that in rational terms I

1650
01:16:22,380 --> 01:16:18,790
mean they don't want to seem that is a

1651
01:16:25,380 --> 01:16:22,390
way they appear and disappear at it will

1652
01:16:26,370 --> 01:16:25,390
they can copy mean by they term what do

1653
01:16:28,710 --> 01:16:26,380
you mean by they

1654
01:16:32,220 --> 01:16:28,720
well the entities behind behind the

1655
01:16:36,210 --> 01:16:32,230
phenomena now we could be dealing with

1656
01:16:38,460 --> 01:16:36,220
two entirely separate oh yes we could be

1657
01:16:40,620 --> 01:16:38,470
actually dealing with let's everyone

1658
01:16:43,260 --> 01:16:40,630
different that yes I think that we are

1659
01:16:47,550 --> 01:16:43,270
dealing something that is also true of a

1660
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:47,560
wide range of anomalies and I call some

1661
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:50,290
of them event anomalies others

1662
01:16:58,500 --> 01:16:54,090
experience anomalies event anomalies are

1663
01:17:00,840 --> 01:16:58,510
anomalous occurrences for which there is

1664
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:00,850
some kind of evidence that it occurred

1665
01:17:08,670 --> 01:17:05,530
within consensus reality the experience

1666
01:17:11,190 --> 01:17:08,680
anomalies are the highly strange cases

1667
01:17:14,370 --> 01:17:11,200
like everything from intelligent fairies

1668
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:14,380
to UFO abductions that are really

1669
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:18,610
vividly perceived very puzzling but we

1670
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:23,890
have no proof that that event anomaly is

1671
01:17:29,700 --> 01:17:26,050
expressing always even the same thing

1672
01:17:32,580 --> 01:17:29,710
there they make the event anomalies are

1673
01:17:35,310 --> 01:17:32,590
the merely unexplained the experience

1674
01:17:37,890 --> 01:17:35,320
anomalies are the inexplicable and I

1675
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:37,900
think that we may be asking the wrong

1676
01:17:42,870 --> 01:17:40,810
question not only about UFOs but about a

1677
01:17:46,140 --> 01:17:42,880
whole wide range of extraordinary

1678
01:17:48,660 --> 01:17:46,150
experiences we can't assume that that

1679
01:17:52,260 --> 01:17:48,670
you have the UFO abductions men in black

1680
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:52,270
are related to hard evidence cases like

1681
01:17:57,420 --> 01:17:54,850
radar visuals and stuff that they may

1682
01:18:01,440 --> 01:17:57,430
just be some kind of phenomenon that

1683
01:18:04,170 --> 01:18:01,450
mimics the event anomaly well I think it

1684
01:18:06,690 --> 01:18:04,180
would carry yes you can't say that and I

1685
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:06,700
the case of some of these men in black

1686
01:18:13,650 --> 01:18:10,930
because they have showed up and if not

1687
01:18:17,820 --> 01:18:13,660
threatened the seriously harassed

1688
01:18:19,770 --> 01:18:17,830
legitimate UFO witnesses about some yeah

1689
01:18:22,230 --> 01:18:19,780
Tim you're not understanding me maybe

1690
01:18:24,270 --> 01:18:22,240
I'm not explaining myself well but I'm

1691
01:18:26,580 --> 01:18:24,280
not questioning anybody's honesty these

1692
01:18:29,580 --> 01:18:26,590
things are experientially real we're

1693
01:18:32,580 --> 01:18:29,590
talking about what they really are and

1694
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:32,590
the end they may not be what they appear

1695
01:18:39,230 --> 01:18:37,210
to be and I think that we really have to

1696
01:18:42,330 --> 01:18:39,240
be careful when we talk about UFOs

1697
01:18:44,300 --> 01:18:42,340
because I don't know that the UFOs the

1698
01:18:47,700 --> 01:18:44,310
radar visuals are the same as the

1699
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:47,710
quote-unquote UFOs of abductions and men

1700
01:18:53,550 --> 01:18:50,010
and black and other high strangeness

1701
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:53,560
experiences you know one thing we know

1702
01:18:58,290 --> 01:18:56,410
about the event anomaly side of the

1703
01:19:01,170 --> 01:18:58,300
equation is that there's some potential

1704
01:19:03,870 --> 01:19:01,180
to document that something really

1705
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:03,880
unusual happened in this world with

1706
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:06,480
experienced anomalies all you have

1707
01:19:14,910 --> 01:19:09,130
essentially is perception memory and

1708
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:14,920
testimony and that's the body look into

1709
01:19:21,780 --> 01:19:17,530
perception memory in testimony the more

1710
01:19:23,670 --> 01:19:21,790
elusive it gets and I think that we

1711
01:19:26,820 --> 01:19:23,680
really have to be careful and we're

1712
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:26,830
talking about anomalies generally just

1713
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:29,290
what we what we mean and what we're

1714
01:19:33,090 --> 01:19:30,130
referring to

1715
01:19:35,100 --> 01:19:33,100
we can't just implicitly assume that

1716
01:19:37,170 --> 01:19:35,110
everything is the same because they

1717
01:19:38,430 --> 01:19:37,180
might not be the same at all and there

1718
01:19:41,610 --> 01:19:38,440
are things that may have only

1719
01:19:44,130 --> 01:19:41,620
superficial similarity okay but we're

1720
01:19:46,950 --> 01:19:44,140
here by talking about dr. Hynek and

1721
01:19:49,130 --> 01:19:46,960
these were some of his beliefs which you

1722
01:19:52,460 --> 01:19:49,140
may have argued that with him about but

1723
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:52,470
you know he still had them nonetheless

1724
01:19:58,890 --> 01:19:57,130
in fact here's a case that he he

1725
01:20:01,080 --> 01:19:58,900
mentions here he says changed the

1726
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:01,090
question to what recent cases have been

1727
01:20:05,670 --> 01:20:03,130
most perplexing and I'll tell you a

1728
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:05,680
whopper someone called the hotline in

1729
01:20:09,900 --> 01:20:07,330
the middle of the night got me out of

1730
01:20:13,500 --> 01:20:09,910
bed it was a police officer from a small

1731
01:20:17,220 --> 01:20:13,510
town in Minnesota where a local flap has

1732
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:17,230
been going on since November 1975 what

1733
01:20:21,540 --> 01:20:18,130
he told me

1734
01:20:23,580 --> 01:20:21,550
with these paranormal elements it seems

1735
01:20:26,250 --> 01:20:23,590
that a couple were writing down a

1736
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:26,260
highway towards town when the man

1737
01:20:31,140 --> 01:20:28,449
remembered he had to make a phone call

1738
01:20:33,540 --> 01:20:31,150
he swung the car into a driveway of a

1739
01:20:34,950 --> 01:20:33,550
motel and proceeded to walk toward an

1740
01:20:37,530 --> 01:20:34,960
outdoor phone booth

1741
01:20:38,100 --> 01:20:37,540
just as he was about to open the door to

1742
01:20:40,950 --> 01:20:38,110
the booth

1743
01:20:44,129 --> 01:20:40,960
a big black catalogue pulled up in front

1744
01:20:46,140 --> 01:20:44,139
of him and blocked his path an ordinary

1745
01:20:48,899 --> 01:20:46,150
looking man hopped out of the front seat

1746
01:20:50,430 --> 01:20:48,909
and literally pushed the gentleman out

1747
01:20:54,990 --> 01:20:50,440
of the way in an effort to get to the

1748
01:20:58,020 --> 01:20:55,000
phone first mist by this uncourteous

1749
01:21:00,510 --> 01:20:58,030
action the man drove down the highway a

1750
01:21:03,390 --> 01:21:00,520
little while longer until he came to a

1751
01:21:06,180 --> 01:21:03,400
second roadside telephone this time the

1752
01:21:09,419 --> 01:21:06,190
mysterious black car really drove the

1753
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:09,429
fellow and his wife into a ditch they

1754
01:21:15,990 --> 01:21:13,570
narrowly escaped injury as before the

1755
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:16,000
big caddy came to a screeching halt the

1756
01:21:22,110 --> 01:21:18,370
front door flew open and out raced the

1757
01:21:24,270 --> 01:21:22,120
same individual his destination and was

1758
01:21:28,470 --> 01:21:24,280
the telephone he just about took the

1759
01:21:32,010 --> 01:21:28,480
dime out of my hand one of the was the

1760
01:21:33,899 --> 01:21:32,020
way the incident was reported this story

1761
01:21:36,330 --> 01:21:33,909
isn't over according to dr. Hynek

1762
01:21:38,910 --> 01:21:36,340
according to the police officer who

1763
01:21:41,129 --> 01:21:38,920
called the center the identical routine

1764
01:21:43,830 --> 01:21:41,139
was followed a third time by now the

1765
01:21:45,959 --> 01:21:43,840
couple were burning mad they chased the

1766
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:45,969
car down the highway trying to copy down

1767
01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:48,370
the license plate number which they were

1768
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:51,280
successful successful in doing suddenly

1769
01:21:55,919 --> 01:21:52,690
and this is where the whole episode

1770
01:21:58,350 --> 01:21:55,929
takes on an eerie quality before their

1771
01:22:01,020 --> 01:21:58,360
eyes the vehicle in front of them lifted

1772
01:22:05,310 --> 01:22:01,030
up into the air and disappeared as if it

1773
01:22:07,950 --> 01:22:05,320
had flown into another dimension and and

1774
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:07,960
this is one of the more perplexing cases

1775
01:22:15,419 --> 01:22:10,810
that he was intrigued by this is very

1776
01:22:20,629 --> 01:22:15,429
much like a case from Ohio and 1873 I

1777
01:22:23,189 --> 01:22:20,639
believe which is very interestingly and

1778
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:23,199
competently investigated in the book

1779
01:22:29,790 --> 01:22:26,170
called return to my Konya like this all

1780
01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:29,800
back in Martin Shaw and they came away

1781
01:22:34,650 --> 01:22:31,450
from it believing that this

1782
01:22:37,950 --> 01:22:34,660
happened this is the same much the same

1783
01:22:42,150 --> 01:22:37,960
kind of experiencing oh yes in 1873

1784
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:42,160
cultural context well and of course I

1785
01:22:45,780 --> 01:22:45,010
guess to some degree well what would you

1786
01:22:51,480 --> 01:22:45,790
say

1787
01:22:54,420 --> 01:22:51,490
mark was Jacque fillets influence on dr.

1788
01:22:56,490 --> 01:22:54,430
Heine because certainly jacque has in

1789
01:23:00,390 --> 01:22:56,500
the pretext of all of this some pretty

1790
01:23:02,490 --> 01:23:00,400
strange ideas when it comes to a ufos he

1791
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:02,500
certainly not one to believe in the

1792
01:23:09,270 --> 01:23:06,570
extra-terrestrial hypothesis right and

1793
01:23:12,390 --> 01:23:09,280
one of my favorite episodes to write

1794
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:12,400
about in the book involve dr. villa and

1795
01:23:19,050 --> 01:23:14,890
dr. Hynek when they arrived in colorado

1796
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:19,060
in 1968 or 69 I can't remember when it

1797
01:23:23,430 --> 01:23:20,650
was when they were going to testify to

1798
01:23:26,580 --> 01:23:23,440
the Condon committee about their UFO

1799
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:26,590
work and they are driving along in their

1800
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:28,930
rented car and they start talking about

1801
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:32,170
their their spiritual leanings and about

1802
01:23:37,440 --> 01:23:33,490
their mutual interest in the

1803
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:37,450
Rosicrucians and and ionics interest in

1804
01:23:42,930 --> 01:23:39,250
the in the writings of and teachings of

1805
01:23:44,580 --> 01:23:42,940
Rudolf Steiner so they so I found it I

1806
01:23:47,460 --> 01:23:44,590
found it just fascinating that these two

1807
01:23:50,150 --> 01:23:47,470
men who came together out of a

1808
01:23:52,380 --> 01:23:50,160
fascination for the scientific puzzle of

1809
01:23:54,090 --> 01:23:52,390
UFOs or at least that was the way they

1810
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:54,100
were looking at it then scientific

1811
01:23:59,730 --> 01:23:57,010
puzzle also found this common ground in

1812
01:24:05,250 --> 01:23:59,740
in a much much different realm this this

1813
01:24:07,740 --> 01:24:05,260
very spiritual realm of dealing with you

1814
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:07,750
know parallel dimensions and the

1815
01:24:11,700 --> 01:24:09,730
supersensible realm as Rudolf Steiner

1816
01:24:13,890 --> 01:24:11,710
described it I have a quote of heineken

1817
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:13,900
and I'm now then looking at and I'm

1818
01:24:18,780 --> 01:24:15,610
really sorry I didn't use it in the book

1819
01:24:22,430 --> 01:24:18,790
and I don't have the date or issue of

1820
01:24:26,130 --> 01:24:22,440
this publication but Hynek uses the term

1821
01:24:27,870 --> 01:24:26,140
meta to real he says I am more inclined

1822
01:24:30,710 --> 01:24:27,880
to think in terms of something meta

1823
01:24:34,530 --> 01:24:30,720
terrestrial a sort of parallel reality

1824
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:34,540
so yeah he and he and Val a definitely

1825
01:24:37,670 --> 01:24:36,610
were attuned to each other on on many

1826
01:24:40,380 --> 01:24:37,680
different levels

1827
01:24:42,570 --> 01:24:40,390
Val I did get impatient with Hynek

1828
01:24:44,790 --> 01:24:42,580
though as as I've quoted several times

1829
01:24:45,820 --> 01:24:44,800
in my book he would get impatient with

1830
01:24:48,470 --> 01:24:45,830
Heine

1831
01:24:50,900 --> 01:24:48,480
being a little bit too much in love with

1832
01:24:53,630 --> 01:24:50,910
being a celebrity and he would get very

1833
01:24:55,610 --> 01:24:53,640
impatient when Hynek in his opinion

1834
01:24:57,500 --> 01:24:55,620
didn't stand up to Carl Sagan in the

1835
01:25:02,090 --> 01:24:57,510
many times do it at the two of them

1836
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:02,100
clashed mm-hmm well I find it Carl

1837
01:25:06,890 --> 01:25:04,530
Sagan's behavior very very strange you

1838
01:25:09,790 --> 01:25:06,900
know we had a guest on the show here at

1839
01:25:12,110 --> 01:25:09,800
Tim remember about six months ago

1840
01:25:16,490 --> 01:25:12,120
pointed out that yet who pointed out the

1841
01:25:20,330 --> 01:25:16,500
fact that Carl Sagan was a believer in

1842
01:25:23,630 --> 01:25:20,340
what we would call the ancient astronaut

1843
01:25:26,690 --> 01:25:23,640
theory he believed that you know back in

1844
01:25:28,940 --> 01:25:26,700
the ancient times the Sumerians or

1845
01:25:31,120 --> 01:25:28,950
whatever they would they were visited

1846
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:31,130
but they don't visit us anymore

1847
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:35,610
they've list this in the dirt so to

1848
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:39,360
speak I you know I I kind of find that

1849
01:25:48,290 --> 01:25:42,810
hard to swallow I mean it you know you

1850
01:25:51,530 --> 01:25:48,300
have these skeptical guys like Sagan and

1851
01:25:53,959 --> 01:25:51,540
dr. Menzel and and it sounds almost like

1852
01:25:56,570 --> 01:25:53,969
you're listening to Donald Trump I mean

1853
01:25:59,690 --> 01:25:56,580
it's just like yeah you can't you know

1854
01:26:02,209 --> 01:25:59,700
you can't get a grasp on what they're

1855
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:02,219
trying to convey I mean it's just not

1856
01:26:08,540 --> 01:26:05,730
the feasible I I think one thing that

1857
01:26:11,540 --> 01:26:08,550
comes out in Mark's book is that that

1858
01:26:15,050 --> 01:26:11,550
Allen Hynek was a far more courageous

1859
01:26:17,390 --> 01:26:15,060
guy Vinh Khai Lagan was carl sagan

1860
01:26:19,700 --> 01:26:17,400
believed what was I mean I'm sure he was

1861
01:26:24,229 --> 01:26:19,710
sincere I'm not saying he was insincere

1862
01:26:28,459 --> 01:26:24,239
but as it happened his beliefs coincided

1863
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:28,469
with his career requirements that's well

1864
01:26:34,370 --> 01:26:32,730
yes yes I own I dream about and also to

1865
01:26:37,850 --> 01:26:34,380
where were the mut where the money's

1866
01:26:40,580 --> 01:26:37,860
coming from yes you know an effect

1867
01:26:43,040 --> 01:26:40,590
ability Allen really had the courage to

1868
01:26:45,470 --> 01:26:43,050
step out I mean he didn't do it very

1869
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:45,480
quickly but when he did it he did it and

1870
01:26:51,140 --> 01:26:48,690
history will always honor him for that

1871
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:51,150
and I think that history will be kinder

1872
01:26:58,100 --> 01:26:54,090
down my neck vindictive Carl Sagan well

1873
01:26:59,120 --> 01:26:58,110
now and what year mark did the Heinicke

1874
01:27:05,540 --> 01:26:59,130
leave

1875
01:27:10,310 --> 01:27:05,550
Chicago and head there for Phoenix 1984

1876
01:27:12,379 --> 01:27:10,320
and and it was because some a big

1877
01:27:15,709 --> 01:27:12,389
potential donor had they offered him a

1878
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:15,719
nice place to stay in some talkative

1879
01:27:20,629 --> 01:27:18,719
stuff honey for funding yes he offered

1880
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:20,639
them the use of his mansion and there

1881
01:27:24,979 --> 01:27:23,010
were offers of lavish funding to the

1882
01:27:26,180 --> 01:27:24,989
tune of two million dollars a year in

1883
01:27:28,209 --> 01:27:26,190
operating funds

1884
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:28,219
why have we I think we've heard that a

1885
01:27:35,629 --> 01:27:32,130
log be along the Leyden from several

1886
01:27:39,950 --> 01:27:35,639
people I mean yeah people can talk a big

1887
01:27:42,470 --> 01:27:39,960
talk a big game and then they they often

1888
01:27:45,860 --> 01:27:42,480
at this point which of course is the the

1889
01:27:50,149 --> 01:27:45,870
UFO field in general or these people

1890
01:27:52,370 --> 01:27:50,159
have a max of their own to grind or a a

1891
01:27:54,320 --> 01:27:52,380
particular individual that they're

1892
01:27:57,250 --> 01:27:54,330
trying to promote I mean I don't know if

1893
01:28:00,310 --> 01:27:57,260
that's the the the case there but I

1894
01:28:03,350 --> 01:28:00,320
understand some of the files are still

1895
01:28:08,090 --> 01:28:03,360
hidden away there and some locker or

1896
01:28:10,669 --> 01:28:08,100
security place in the Phoenix area well

1897
01:28:12,470 --> 01:28:10,679
I never brought that up with Dana and

1898
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:12,480
Brian when I had my interview with them

1899
01:28:16,669 --> 01:28:14,250
because frankly I didn't I didn't feel

1900
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:16,679
it it was directly relevant relevant to

1901
01:28:20,750 --> 01:28:18,330
the story I was trying to tell in the

1902
01:28:22,250 --> 01:28:20,760
book yes yeah so yeah that still remains

1903
01:28:25,430 --> 01:28:22,260
a mystery I know there are a lot of

1904
01:28:27,649 --> 01:28:25,440
there are stories and rumors still

1905
01:28:30,919 --> 01:28:27,659
circulating about that I don't know if

1906
01:28:32,930 --> 01:28:30,929
anyone actually knows whether the files

1907
01:28:35,990 --> 01:28:32,940
exist or where they are but yeah and

1908
01:28:37,340 --> 01:28:36,000
that was a profiles you know I was

1909
01:28:42,590 --> 01:28:37,350
really I was just going to say that

1910
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:42,600
they're right next to them if the a

1911
01:28:48,410 --> 01:28:44,610
profiles which really have never

1912
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:48,420
surfaced sadly well you know II know

1913
01:28:53,060 --> 01:28:50,400
about my I guess you don't about my

1914
01:28:56,930 --> 01:28:53,070
weird synchronicity i i i wrote a book

1915
01:28:58,550 --> 01:28:56,940
recently on the philip k dick the matrix

1916
01:29:00,850 --> 01:28:58,560
a phil Akkad's

1917
01:29:03,979 --> 01:29:00,860
dick and a paranormal experience

1918
01:29:06,649 --> 01:29:03,989
synchronicities and tim buckley I was in

1919
01:29:09,590 --> 01:29:06,659
Phoenix and I in the Tucson and I often

1920
01:29:12,050 --> 01:29:09,600
go there maybe once a year or so and I

1921
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:12,060
was had a long conversation interview

1922
01:29:16,670 --> 01:29:13,170
with Alan Ben

1923
01:29:19,700 --> 01:29:16,680
who was at one time the librarian for a

1924
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:19,710
pro and was the original consultant on

1925
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:22,170
the close encounters movie when

1926
01:29:26,870 --> 01:29:24,330
paramount was behind it and they turned

1927
01:29:28,940 --> 01:29:26,880
it over to Universal or how it however

1928
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:28,950
that that all when the course he didn't

1929
01:29:34,460 --> 01:29:32,730
see any money at all on it but after

1930
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:34,470
having a you know a conversation about

1931
01:29:37,670 --> 01:29:35,760
four or five hours

1932
01:29:40,790 --> 01:29:37,680
my friend is Sharla and I got into the

1933
01:29:42,380 --> 01:29:40,800
car and we drove to Sedona okay there's

1934
01:29:45,470 --> 01:29:42,390
a place there in Sedona called the

1935
01:29:47,090 --> 01:29:45,480
coffeepot which is right on the where

1936
01:29:48,710 --> 01:29:47,100
you come into town and everybody hangs

1937
01:29:50,270 --> 01:29:48,720
out there and it's near Belle Rock and

1938
01:29:53,630 --> 01:29:50,280
all these places that people go to

1939
01:29:57,140 --> 01:29:53,640
meditate so we have our brunch and we go

1940
01:29:59,870 --> 01:29:57,150
into the parking lot and there in the

1941
01:30:04,850 --> 01:29:59,880
the next space over from where our

1942
01:30:08,110 --> 01:30:04,860
vehicle is parked as a as a car and you

1943
01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:08,120
know modern the car pretty recent them

1944
01:30:17,390 --> 01:30:12,690
vintage and the license plate says a pro

1945
01:30:20,500 --> 01:30:17,400
on it a PR oh now even if there was an

1946
01:30:23,930 --> 01:30:20,510
old time member let's say living in the

1947
01:30:28,190 --> 01:30:23,940
you know in Arizona who would want that

1948
01:30:31,130 --> 01:30:28,200
as a what what kind of play do they call

1949
01:30:32,900 --> 01:30:31,140
that yeah we play vanity plate which I

1950
01:30:35,630 --> 01:30:32,910
can't imagine anybody would but even if

1951
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:35,640
they had that as a vanity plate why

1952
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:38,970
would that be parked next to our vehicle

1953
01:30:43,910 --> 01:30:41,250
in in in Sedona I mean one of the

1954
01:30:47,930 --> 01:30:43,920
chances I mean synchronicities play some

1955
01:30:51,470 --> 01:30:47,940
weird roles in this whole UFO thing it's

1956
01:30:53,840 --> 01:30:51,480
also part of the paranormal complexity

1957
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:53,850
of this but we're running it pretty

1958
01:30:59,060 --> 01:30:56,850
close to the end of the show and I do

1959
01:31:02,060 --> 01:30:59,070
want to go around the table here and

1960
01:31:04,190 --> 01:31:02,070
allow our two guests to tell the people

1961
01:31:05,930 --> 01:31:04,200
where they get their books and their

1962
01:31:09,410 --> 01:31:05,940
websites and what they're going to be

1963
01:31:12,860 --> 01:31:09,420
working on next and so forth the when we

1964
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:12,870
start out with you Marc well my book the

1965
01:31:18,650 --> 01:31:14,930
Close Encounters man is in bookstores

1966
01:31:22,570 --> 01:31:18,660
almost everywhere right now if you can

1967
01:31:24,440 --> 01:31:22,580
find a big publisher de street books

1968
01:31:26,540 --> 01:31:24,450
it's also saying yeah

1969
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:26,550
it's the books doing well if you can't

1970
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:27,090
find it

1971
01:31:31,130 --> 01:31:28,890
the new release shelf then look for it

1972
01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:31,140
in the paranormal and metaphysical

1973
01:31:36,110 --> 01:31:33,570
section or perhaps the science section

1974
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:36,120
or perhaps the biography section it's

1975
01:31:39,410 --> 01:31:37,890
hard to say it can be in a number of

1976
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:39,420
different places in your local books are

1977
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:42,570
also Amazon yeah yeah I can we do we

1978
01:31:48,170 --> 01:31:45,330
decimal systems still exist in

1979
01:31:50,150 --> 01:31:48,180
bookstores in libraries and people say

1980
01:31:52,250 --> 01:31:50,160
well you know they're all mixed in there

1981
01:31:53,750 --> 01:31:52,260
with the paranormal and the metaphysical

1982
01:31:57,020 --> 01:31:53,760
and all yet because nobody ever thought

1983
01:31:58,640 --> 01:31:57,030
of coming up with a a category for UFOs

1984
01:32:01,820 --> 01:31:58,650
and giving it its a specific number

1985
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:01,830
however do we use to do that and your

1986
01:32:08,210 --> 01:32:04,890
website mark high strangeness UFO

1987
01:32:11,150 --> 01:32:08,220
dot-com that's my blog and anything

1988
01:32:13,160 --> 01:32:11,160
you're working on now I haven't quite

1989
01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:13,170
decided what comes next I've been so

1990
01:32:18,260 --> 01:32:16,170
busy doing PR work for the FIR the Close

1991
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:18,270
Encounters man I haven't really had much

1992
01:32:22,610 --> 01:32:20,970
chance to think ahead well I I wish you

1993
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:22,620
well on the book and maybe they'll make

1994
01:32:27,980 --> 01:32:24,690
it into a movie why I understand this a

1995
01:32:30,050 --> 01:32:27,990
TV series coming out that is correct the

1996
01:32:33,770 --> 01:32:30,060
History Channel is doing a scripted TV

1997
01:32:37,310 --> 01:32:33,780
series about well apparently it's it's

1998
01:32:39,380 --> 01:32:37,320
primarily about Project Blue Book but

1999
01:32:41,450 --> 01:32:39,390
it's also about hynek's involvement in

2000
01:32:44,990 --> 01:32:41,460
Project Blue Book so yeah well you don't

2001
01:32:46,730 --> 01:32:45,000
think they've reached out to us we don't

2002
01:32:48,350 --> 01:32:46,740
really know any details at this point

2003
01:32:51,140 --> 01:32:48,360
but it'll be interesting to see how that

2004
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:51,150
develops indeed well and Jerry Clark my

2005
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:53,730
old buddy that tella tell us the titles

2006
01:33:00,530 --> 01:32:55,890
going back to 1962 of all those books

2007
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:00,540
we've done oh man it's just look out

2008
01:33:05,900 --> 01:33:04,290
Jerome Clark and on the Internet it'll

2009
01:33:09,470 --> 01:33:05,910
tell you what books I've written and you

2010
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:09,480
can read some reviews of them and I stay

2011
01:33:16,310 --> 01:33:12,570
busy I'm working I've spent the last

2012
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:16,320
number of years working on my hypothesis

2013
01:33:21,620 --> 01:33:18,930
of experience anomalies which is

2014
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:21,630
becoming an influential way of looking

2015
01:33:26,690 --> 01:33:24,210
at some of the intractable mysteries and

2016
01:33:31,430 --> 01:33:26,700
I have a big article coming out in 40

2017
01:33:36,500 --> 01:33:31,440
and times in the fall that I think your

2018
01:33:40,290 --> 01:33:36,510
listeners may find interesting hey Jerry

2019
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:44,340
Oh on paper that's about it yeah yeah I

2020
01:33:51,030 --> 01:33:47,130
mean but you can't either where I die

2021
01:33:57,660 --> 01:33:51,040
okay all right well I suggest people get

2022
01:33:59,490 --> 01:33:57,670
that $20 CD disc and read those back

2023
01:34:02,700 --> 01:33:59,500
issues because they they were they were

2024
01:34:04,260 --> 01:34:02,710
pretty well pretty well done yeah they

2025
01:34:06,780 --> 01:34:04,270
were excellent yeah they were excellent

2026
01:34:09,450 --> 01:34:06,790
and I have had a great time this evening

2027
01:34:13,230 --> 01:34:09,460
and I'm sure my other half over there in

2028
01:34:15,660 --> 01:34:13,240
Jasper Indiana has as well and that we

2029
01:34:21,270 --> 01:34:15,670
are going to continue in future weeks

2030
01:34:24,120 --> 01:34:21,280
with our UFO history lessons because

2031
01:34:25,920 --> 01:34:24,130
people need to be educated about this

2032
01:34:30,420 --> 01:34:25,930
and of course we have other subjects

2033
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:30,430
that we we cover just as well we're into

2034
01:34:36,090 --> 01:34:33,370
the paranormal in the unexplained a lot

2035
01:34:40,830 --> 01:34:36,100
of 14 phenomena flies by us just like

2036
01:34:41,970 --> 01:34:40,840
Mothman and tempest Oh Tim anything

2037
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:41,980
you're working on that we should know

2038
01:34:49,470 --> 01:34:46,530
about well I'm working on cleaning up a

2039
01:34:53,400 --> 01:34:49,480
couple of books by the Michael at

2040
01:34:55,710 --> 01:34:53,410
Michael ax bar yes and I've been going

2041
01:34:57,600 --> 01:34:55,720
going through those and making them

2042
01:35:01,050 --> 01:34:57,610
going to be making them available you

2043
01:35:05,460 --> 01:35:01,060
know in the for your publication so

2044
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:05,470
Michael X was a quite a new age' teacher

2045
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:08,530
he actually gave some fairly sound

2046
01:35:13,890 --> 01:35:12,010
advice as opposed to a lot of people you

2047
01:35:15,930 --> 01:35:13,900
know and kind of in the early days of

2048
01:35:19,170 --> 01:35:15,940
the UFO movement who had a lot to say

2049
01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:19,180
but didn't really you know that connect

2050
01:35:25,170 --> 01:35:23,290
the the dot so to speak anyway the clock

2051
01:35:27,690 --> 01:35:25,180
is ticking towards midnight here in New

2052
01:35:29,190 --> 01:35:27,700
York and I want to wish you all a great

2053
01:35:31,989 --> 01:35:29,200
evening and a great show

2054
01:35:38,589 --> 01:35:31,999
thanks Tina thanks Peter

2055
01:35:42,459 --> 01:35:38,599
to everybody you've been listening to

2056
01:35:46,419 --> 01:35:42,469
exploring the bazaar with hosts Timothy

2057
01:35:48,699 --> 01:35:46,429
Beckley and Kay Swartz taking back the

2058
01:35:51,249 --> 01:35:48,709
night by jetting non-stop above the

2059
01:35:54,549 --> 01:35:51,259
cosmos in search of the truly bizarre

2060
01:35:57,909 --> 01:35:54,559
and totally unexplained if you as

2061
01:36:02,469 --> 01:35:57,919
they're coming Thursday nights at 7:00

2062
01:36:04,409 --> 01:36:02,479
p.m. Pacific tension on the K cor

2063
01:36:06,839 --> 01:36:04,419
digital radio

2064
01:36:10,259 --> 01:36:06,849
for more information on exploring the

2065
01:36:13,139 --> 01:36:10,269
bazaar and host timothy Beckley and to

2066
01:36:16,229 --> 01:36:13,149
swartz check out their kco our digital

2067
01:36:22,469 --> 01:36:16,239
radio network follow their YouTube

2068
01:36:29,650 --> 01:36:22,479
channel @m r UFO 1,100 explode the

2069
01:36:29,660 --> 01:36:32,890
you